Wednesday, October 21, 2009

Why the social divide is NOT inevitable.

UPDATE: I've gone through the comments and a number of readers mentioned that the portion of the paper with findings that lead to the conclusion is missing. Actually, I have an earlier posting that summarised the paper[Link]. The authors' presentation for the paper is found here : [Link]. Please go through the presentation - you will find the conclusions of the authors well substantiated.
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I received many responses to my previous posting on the social divide.
MM Lee had to say what is favorable for his political party and we cannot expect him to admit that something has gone wrong here. For those who have time, I suggest you look up research papers by academics who have looked closely at the problem. I said in my previous posting that globalisation is half the explanation and the other half is our govt policy response to globalisation and the widening income gap. The PAP did not change their old schemes in a big way as the world transformed in the past 20 years. Where did I get this from? Some of it from researchers in LKY School of Public Policy! They took a good look at the problem and concluded that the PAP policy responses were the main cause of the social divide. To make sure I'm not accused of being overly critical of the PAP govt. I leave you with the introduction and conclusion from the research paper.

"The current social protection system in Singapore is the outcome of conscious policy choices and cannot be atrributed to the globalisation phenomenon...."

- Singapore's policy responses to ageing, inequality and poverty by Mukul G. Asher and Amarendu Nandy.


70 comments:

sg_citizen said...

Thanks for putting out info that the mainstream media tries to hide or marginalize Lucky.Kudos to you.

http://vonhayek.blogspot.com/ said...

We might be too late. Our system may have structurlly screwed by LKY and LHL that we might never be able to implement a system base on social justice.

Before we are able to comfortably lock ourselves up enjoying life on our hard earn accumulated $.

PAP brought in all the FTs that will eventually demand the same amount of social service. We cannot afford it.

The last flood gate is to control citizenship which is now still relatively untouch.

I think LKY and LHL should go.

Anonymous said...

I would happily vote Dr Chee's pet hamster if it stands for election.

But given the lack of candidates ... PAP victory in the next erection NOT inevitable meh?

Mr Lucky ... you country needs you.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I think they should go. They have been screwing us for too long, getting away with it and becoming so loose in their speech that they can spout insults and nonsense to your face. We must stand against such tyranny. If not, we are a lost cause and no one will stand up for us.

Anonymous said...

what to do? God also allows him to live this long. Most TH/GIC companies like to outsource their operations like data entry jobs to foreign countries, making them rich and live better than us. How come they dont get our older citizens to do data entry jobs instead of washing toilets?

Anonymous said...

I think LKY is past his shelf life.

He speaks to us as if we are children.

Death and diseases are also inevitable, yet people do all they can to delay the inevitable; and healthcare is a huge industry and health is always a ministry in any government.

Letting the inevitable be does not need any policy nor a need for any government too, and we certainly do not need a minister to spout mere tautologies.

(Maybe a donkey can do better with just any kind of policy, other than letting the inevitable be.)

On LKY's point that having a minimum wage cause companies to hire less, he is missing the point entirely, if he is not spouting a fallacy at best, or telling a lie in its most likelihood.

For if I am a company, if I need one person to do a job, I hire one person, whatever it costs me.

There is no reason to hire a second person, just because it is cheaper compared to elsewhere. The only reason I need to hire two or more people is when the one person is below par in his productivity.

To cheapen ourselves and to slack at work is no solution to unemployment: it is not about companies hiring more, but more - or lack of - companies hiring.

In any case companies set up here get cheap imported foreign so-called talent to run them. So what is LKY talking about?

So there you have it, Singapore: the most senior politician in the land can spout meaningless nonsense and get away with it.

Majulah Singapura!

Lim Leng Hiong said...

I noticed that "Darwinist" and "Social Darwinism" are mentioned in the paper, so I will briefly comment on this from a biological perspective before moving on to wider issues.

1. Throughout history, politicians have borrowed concepts from science without fully understanding them, or sometimes exaggerating certain aspects to better suit their needs.

Darwin was not a pan-adaptationist; even in the "Origins" he acknowledged the possibility of neutral variations and thus other mechanisms of evolution in addition to natural selection.

More importantly, survival of the fittest does NOT mean "dog-eat-dog world", as any population that self-destructs before reproductive age (or is self-destructive enough to impede the development of each successive generation) clearly cannot persist.

Even if we only focus on natural selection, competition is one of its themes, but so is cooperation and mutual benefit. Two populations of completely different species can cooperate for a very long time if there is mutual enhancement of reproductive fitness (a prominent example of this is the relationship between blue butterflies and ants studied by Prof. Naomi Pierce and colleagues). Benefiting oneself does not automatically lead to the detriment of others.

Unfortunately, when they borrow the idea of natural selection, politicians prefer to highlight the competition aspect while ignoring the cooperation aspect.

Over the years, "Darwinism" has become associated with vicious competition in the public consciousness. This is a sad political distortion of a biological concept.

2. To give the proponents the maximum benefit of the doubt, let's just focus on the popular version of social Darwinism itself without much regard to biology. Is unrestricted competition a good social engineering strategy?

Turns out that this is a "to what extent" problem, like so many other problems in life.

Winston Churchill said "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

This view appears to be supported by recent studies (Firebaugh and Tach) that happiness is more dependent on relative income than absolute income. There are two potential consequences of this result: that communist-styled state-enforced equal income does not promote happiness, and on the flip side of the coin, that capitalist-styled unequal income may lead to a perpetual struggle to maintain the same level of happiness, a phenomenon researchers call the "hedonic treadmill".

In an ideal scenario this is not necessarily a bad thing as the less successful will feel compelled to keep up with the more successful. As a whole, the population is driven towards higher levels of productivity.

However there is a limit to the level of happiness that the successful can attain. Harvard psychologist Daniel Gilbert observed that: "Psychologists have spent decades studying the relation between wealth and happiness, and they have generally concluded that wealth increases human happiness when it lifts people out of abject poverty and into the middle class but that it does little to increase happiness thereafter." (http://www.newsweek.com/id/43884)

He added: "Americans who earn $50,000 per year are much happier than those who earn $10,000 per year, but Americans who earn $5 million per year are not much happier than those who earn $100,000 per year."

Princeton researchers (Krueger and Kahneman) have also noticed the same effect. They wrote: "The belief that high income is associated with good mood is widespread but mostly illusory. People with above-average income are relatively satisfied with their lives but are barely happier than others in moment-to-moment experience, tend to be more tense, and do not spend more time in particularly enjoyable activities."

Lim Leng Hiong said...

Continued...

Since the ever-upward pursuit of money results both in diminishing returns and inflated expectations of happiness, the danger exists that once above a certain level of wealth, a vicious cycle can form.

As each unit increase in wealth becomes less and less satisfying, the person is driven to acquire more and more money, and this compulsion will eventually endanger their wellbeing and increasingly the wellbeing of others as well.

The excesses of Wall Street that caused this global economic recession has shown us that some of the super-rich can no longer exercise any self-control. They have a mentality of entitlement and believe that every cent they earned is entirely due to their "own efforts" and continue to demand millions in pay and bonuses in failed companies that have been bailed out by massive public funds.

In an ideal capitalist scenario, these people should have been allowed to fail and become bankrupt, and hopefully their experience of poverty will help them appreciate the importance of setting responsible limits.

In an ideal socialist scenario, the destructive potential of these people should have been kept in check by taxation and regulation so that they are forced to contribute to society no matter what they do.

But the super-rich are also super-powerful, forming inner circles that insulate them from the consequences of their actions. This loss of feedback inhibition is very worrying as it may result in an ever-escalating and destructive positive feedback loop. It also contravenes both the ideals of a capitalist AND a socialist system.

3. In Singapore, we have a higher Gini coefficient than even the United States, but this is simply dismissed out of hand by our leaders! On top of that, we are told that the social divide is inevitable and is due to globalisation.

In my opinion, that statement was a mistake, because such an official acknowledgment that the government is helpless to address the social divide due to global trends suggests to the people that the government could also be helpless in other ways.

Rich supporters of the government expect the government to safeguard their interests by maintaining social stability in Singapore, and whether it was caused by internal policies or external factors or both, the social divide presents a simmering danger to the cohesiveness of the nation. I doubt they expect to hear governmental admissions of helplessness.

How much competition is too much? How wide can the income divide be before underlying tensions break to the surface? These are not hypothetical questions. These are not "moral" questions. These are real, pragmatic, bread-and-butter concerns.

When the government has to put the "inevitable" tag on societal challenges, the people of Singapore, the rich supporters, and even members of the ruling elite, will start to lose confidence in the system.

Anonymous said...

Great writing......

I guess it also answers why most common people intuitively just cannot accept that minister must be paid millions to do a job...... Their reasoning i.e is to attract talent is just too superficial. That also goes for most of the explanations on policies and other issues, as far as I see it.

Anonymous said...

I think Moscow was kind to LKY to ask him about his personal life, instead of indulging in intellectual discourse. He couldn't have handled the sharp wit of the young Moscovites.

Anonymous said...

早报有提过这个报告。见:http://luntan.zaobao.com/archiver/?tid-133223.html

Anonymous said...

LKY probably did a lot of good, but along the way, the temptations of riches and power were too much and that made him want to hang on to it, forgetting all the initial ideals and ambitions.

History has many stories of great men who initially though drive and intentions of the greater good, achieved great things. However, once thrust with power and riches, they lost their way and became obsessed with their own personal objectives.

These scenes have been replayed over and over again.......

Anonymous said...

LKY and LHL will never go. If they step down, they, along with their close relatives, associates and party members, would be investigate immediatly for multiple charges of nepotism, abuse of power and other hidden misdeeds common with many politicians.

They understand this, that's why LKY and LHL will stay in power till the very day they die.

In the meantime, they just make sure they maintain control over the armed forces, finance department, state reserves, police and judiciary. That way, you can't touch them even if you wanted to.

Anonymous said...

LKY and LHL are already calculating where to hide their stash (in US and UK).

They will go when the hate mounts. At present, they are protected by Wong Kan Seng's police force and the army made up by poor slavery YOU.

Amused said...

"On LKY's point that having a minimum wage cause companies to hire less..."

Actually, this baffled me a lot.
The MIW are always stating that Singapore needs more immigrants as we do not have enough workers.

If companies are trending to hire less and automate more (like Japan), would it not contribute to alleviate the "not enough workers" problem?

(But then they will collect less foreign worker levy so...)

Anonymous said...

Singaporeans are law abiding.

They also don't like to get involved in politics, at least not in large numbers.

Hence we have political stability and social peace, regardless of whatever policies, economic situation or anti-establishment blogs.

Thank god, this is our blessing. Or else there will be chaos and anarchy like in other countries where many lives will be lost.

So count our blessings.

Fievel said...

Where is the hope for us in Singapore? I totally agree that I'll vote in Dr Chee's hamster as well. As long as somebody outside of PAP stands for election, by default PAP lose.

But let's just wait and see...if any slander cases or defamation suits will ensue nearing the election...rendering candidates out of the election.

The way I see it, to take power away from PAP in the next election is like hoping that nondescript every-day-joe-lookalike wrestler will win against the Undertaker. How is it posssible??? Unless he takes a chair and play foul maybe.

Anonymous said...

[Thank god, this is our blessing. Or else there will be chaos and anarchy like in other countries where many lives will be lost.

So count our blessings.]

Very selfish comment. Go on, keep counting your blessing and watch other people suffer. See how long can keep counting until become your turn to join them.

Anonymous said...

"and cannot be atrributed to the globalisation phenomenon"

Singapore is just a small red dot leh. What do you mean by the above sentence?

We got oil meh? Got land meh? Got natural resources meh? We don't even have enough people!

Frankly what point are you trying to make? No sense at all!

We are just a small red dot where the entire world can hold us ransom. Oil go up, we pay. Kang Kong go up, we pay. Anything go up, we pay. What we can do is decided by the whole world which is many million times bigger than us. What od you mean by we make choice and cannot be attributed to globalisation phenomenon? Does it even make sense? Are you sure you are not trying to find fault?

Why you never praise PAP when you get to be educated? Why you never say they do well as compared to BURMA? even to indonesia, most investors even prefer to come here to invest due to the political stability. Why you never say all that? why?

You fault finder la...

Anonymous said...

“You don’t vote out a dictatorship,” he says. “And basically that’s what Singapore is, albeit a very sophisticated one.

It’s not possible for us to effect change just through the ballot box. They’ve got control of everything else around us.”

Instead what’s needed is a coalition of civil society and political society coming together and demanding change—a color revolution for Singapore."

- Singapore's 'Martyr', Chee Soon Juan, "Far Eastern Economic Review" (March 2008)

Anonymous said...

Anon. 21/10/09 16.25

`Oil go up, we pay. Kangkong go up, we pay. Anything go up, we pay'

Well said but you miss the ERP go up, we pay. PUB go up, we pay. GST go up, we pay. Pay, pay and pay.

Anonymous said...

I rather vote for a dictatorship who would run this place like his own with great passion then the stupid chee soon juan who only know how to find trouble.

Anonymous said...

“You don’t vote out a dictatorship .. "

Case to study here is Zimbabwe and Robert Mugabe. See any similarities, or you rather turn a blind eye, or cheek too?

Anonymous said...

"I rather vote for a dictatorship who would run this place like his own with great passion .."

The problem is we do not really know what this real "great passion" is.

No man can be trusted, especially when he has complete and unaccountable power, even without any need for fawning sycophants to lap at his feet.

Why do you think LKY is so reluctant to step away from power even when he is approaching senility? It is because he knows what is power and he fears what it can do to him.

Anonymous said...

"So count our blessings."

Maybe there can be greater blessings, and for more people.

Anonymous said...

Actually, I tend to agree that such Income disparity is quite inevitable. However, there are many things a government can, and should, do to alleviate the pains and sufferings of those disadvantaged.

E.g. (Really) Low-cost public housing, Subsidized hospitals and polyclinics, subsidized education (all the way to University), subsidized public services, a much more generous Workfare (Income supplement scheme), state-funded medi-shield for everyone with no exclusion etc.

All these will go a long way in ensuring at least a decent level of standard of livings for all.

40 years ago, perhaps we couldn't afford it. But now!? With this kind of massive reserves, we can fund all these easily with the dividend and interest income generated from it. 3% of 300 Billion is $9 Billion, annually.

*sigh*

Anonymous said...

Make re-sale flats affordable (with more tangible garhmen subsidies)for SINGLES like us. I am willing to buy 3rm flats for $180,000 final price.

THEN I WILL JUST STAY IN MY FLAT TO WHIM OVER SOCIAL INJUSTICES.

else maybe I need to be out in the street some days (no place to go when price shoots up $500,000) just to voice my concern.

maybe TEN YEARS TIME... I TASTE BITTER GLAND EVERYDAY (FROM WORK)NO PROBLEM I CAN BID MY TIME HAHA.

Anonymous said...

The troll is back. Honestly I'm tired of arguing over blatant facts. IMHO, if LKY and LSL cannot be got rid of, we still have hope - LKY will have to kick the bucket and LSL cancer can still recur. Hooray! ;) Burn in hell with your paper money!

Anonymous said...

Anyone with haf a brain can tell that the income divide is artificial. Just listen to the argument:

I am PAP. I must be Singaporean. No FT and less mortals can replace me. I am ultra-talented with helicopter view. Do not notice of my glaringly rotten performance.

You are worker. Best PRC or some pther 3rd work country willing to work for peanut wages. Non-singaporean preferred. You are to work until you die and deposit 20% or your pay in your CPF for my "break-the-glass-in-case-of-emergency" piggy bank, also for my mahjong sessions with western foreign banks.

LOL

Anonymous said...

hi anon 15:29,

you are very wrong. let me tell u something about brunei. 40+ yrs ago brunei had civil war. brunei's population now is close to 400,000. so imagine how small brunei's population was 40 yrs ago. generally bruneians are peaceful people but how come they had civil war in the 60s?

Singapore is peaceful now but i'm not so sure 10-20 yrs from now if the economic policies are NOT changed.

These are deliberate economic policies to exercise eugenics.

Imagine 10,000 hungry Singaporeans on the streets. humans are after all animals. extreme hunger and feeling of helplessness will bring out the worst in any man/woman.

singapore is no different from other examples in world history. there are so so many examples in world history. why would singapore be any different?

its brings me no happiness nor satisfaction to tell you that I told you so when singapore is in a state of emergency!

Anonymous said...

sometimes i wish some external countries will interference with the singapore domestic affair, to start the first spark. Similar to 1997, what US do to Indonesia. Singaporeans are just too meek and weak.

Another way is for singapore to get bankrupt. perhaps there is the reason why GIC is raising money through bond issuance.

singapore has already become an empty vessel. all the reserve is being locked by their failed overseas investments. there is a lot of hot money in singapore, all it takes is some hedge funds to start the inital spark and what happen to thailand in 1997 will happen to us.

this is the quickest way to get rid of these greedy leaders.if they continue to be in power, eventually singaporeans will have a more terrible and sorrowful ending. it is better to end fast and rebuild all over again.

Chee Wai Lee said...

@Anon 20:51

Just a fact check: Brunei's only civil war was in the 1600s when they had two Sultans after their predecessor was murdered.

You are probably referring to the armed uprising by the opposition faction Parti Rakyat Brunei in 1962 which was put down by the Sultan and the British after 5 months. Technically not a civil war.

Anonymous said...

Universal health care will not and does not bankrupt the country.

The rational is simple, when people don't have to worry about large medical bills, they will spend more on other things instead of save and scrimp.

Take note that when people spend money, money does not disappears, your expenses is somebody else revenue. When people spend more, businesses will have more revenue and profits, thus resulting in higher tax revenue for government.

In addition, there will be more entrepreneurship going on, since for aspiring entrepreneurs without worries from health care costs, will be more likely to go ahead in starting own businesses.

Take note that unlike extreme welfare, people don't purposely get cancer to abuse the less expensive health care.

Anonymous said...

The increasing land cost is also contributing to the social divide.

More and more of us have little CPF by the time we finish paying off our loans. Many Singaporean will retire POOR, thanks to the artificially inflated cost of HDB flats.

Rent is going up all the time. Which means retailers and stall-owners earn less each year, while the corporations get fatter and fatter. Either that, or banks get richer and richer from charging higher interest to landlords who make long-term lease on the land.

Basically, we are royally screwed if we allow PAP and their idiotic policies to continue.

Anonymous said...

chee wai,

yes the armed uprising in 1962. so if it can happen to a population of 200,000...it can definitely happen to a population of 5 million people.

A riot can spark by a few thousand that feels hungry and helpless. So far we are safe because most can migrate to australia. what happen if more and more dont have the money to migrate? the tension will slowly builds up....

modern esingapore's ending has been predicted 30yrs ago in michael young's book "the rise of meritocracy". only in singapore is meritocracy a religion. Michael Young even banned tony blair from using the word publicly.

The new singapore pledge:

We, the citizens of Singapore, pledge ourselves as one socially divided people, regardless of race, language or religion, to build a totalitarian society, based on greed and power so as to achieve happiness, prosperity and progress for our few elites.

Anonymous said...

Of course PAP will say what they want to make sure they stay rich and you poor. I stopped listening to their logic long long ago. It's a bully telling the kids in the playground why he must use up 90% of the resources and why everyone must pay him protection money. Got logic one meh? This kind of talk to get money so easy, who dunno? Stupid argument like paying Top Talent (we know that we are paying for Top Trash) and resisting temptation (you just look all the other countries - how many corrupt politicians? IMHO, what they are doing is no different, but they are stealing money in a legalised way by putting in laws to pay themselves well without checks and balances. THis is called LEEgalised corruption.

You deserve nothing but the best said...

You can do something.
You deserve nothing but the best


And to those mentally unstable masochistic ball-carriers who prefer to compare Singappore to Burma, Indonesia or some other developing countries, please not that your master is earning > Canada + USA + Japan + Germany + Spain + Italy + UK + France's leaders **COMBINED**. So we should, can, and must compare ourselves to these G8 1st-world nation, not some 3rd world countries!

That is, unless you are a masochistic ball-carrier. Remember: We deserve nothing but the best!

Anonymous said...

Forget it. LKY and his cronies will never step down from power, regardless the election results.

LKY already hinted strongly that he might stage a coup if Singaporeans delivered a 'freak result' and voted against his PAP govt.

The police is controlled by WKS, LKY's close relative. The CJ is LKY's close associate. So is the Selected President. LKY's sons were generals. Many of PAP ministers were generals or rear-admirals.

LKY, his son and his daughter-in-law have full control over our reserves. He also controls the finance ministry, which pays all the soldiers and police.

LKY is in a good position to stage a coup if he wants to.

He will never step down from power lah. He knows that if he hands over power after losing elections, he might kena investigated.

Anonymous said...

I believe that there are events higher than what man can plan. LKY can scheme as much as he likes to hold on to his power, but when he meets his Grim Reaper and burn in hell, the game changes again. Never say never. Too much evil will bring their retribution.

Anonymous said...

Yes, one day LKY will die. And yes, perhaps there will be retribution in the afterlife for all the evil that he has done. Honestly, I couldn't care less what will happen to him when he's dead. It is what he is doing to the country when he is alive that worries me. I am first to admit he has contributed a lot to Singapore's progress. However, it pains me to see that he seems to be undoing all the good work he has done in the past. He is more interested in taking care of his elite cronies than the struggling masses. He seems to be blind to the poor who are really struggling or if he sees he doesn't care. I just cannot believe that in Singapore there is no one else that can do a better job running the country that the current batch of overpaid ministers, LKY included. If this is indeed true then we are well and truly f***ed!

Anonymous said...

I think what the old man fears most is what will happen to his kins once he is gone. So to prevent a backlash the next generation of cronies need to be found in order to safe guard his own.


ypap

Kojakbt said...

MM Lee said the widening of income gap is inevitable in a globalised world. Global competition, he said, both depresses wages at the bottom and boosts wages at the top. Let us take a look at 4 first world countries with roughly the same population size as Singapore's. Notice the big difference between their income gaps and ours:

Country (pop), per capita GDP, Gini Index, Non-citizens in Pop (%)
Norway (4.7M) - $98,200 25.0, 6.3%
Ireland (4.2M)- $65,800 32.0, 11.1%
Denmark (5.5M)- $62,500 24.0, 5.2%
Finland (5.3M)- $52,200 29.5, 2.7%

S'pore (4.7M) - $39,500 48.1, 35.8%

* data from CIA World Factbook
* for % of non-citizens in pop, data taken from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland
http://www.ssb.no/utlstat_en/
http://www.stat.fi/til/vaerak/2008/vaerak_2008_2009-03-27_tie_001_en.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_people
http://www.singstat.gov.sg

Anonymous said...

Thanks KojakBT,

Here is the hard evidence that the widening wage cap in not inevitable but a concerted effort to suppress wages by the government to ensure GDP growth at the expanse of the general population. What people do not realise is that our children will suffer in the future due to such myopic policy

Anonymous said...

Your said it well anon@22/10/09 11:48

Anonymous said...

I cannot believe that we have more people here than Norway and New Zealand, which have much bigger land mass than Singapore.

Are we crazy and really want 6.5 millions people?

Kendy said...

It is extremely simple why they want to chase a economic policy of GDP growth at all costs.

Firstly, it's politically easier to sell to the public, as the mass public will think that a higher GDP means that Singaporeans are living better than before.

Secondly, I believe that the % of GDP growth takes up a substantial portion when it comes to appraising them with regards to their performance bonus.

It isn't hard to see that it is for both political and personal gain for the mi(ni)s(t)ers.

Kendy said...

On a side note though, we do not deserve anything good from the govt. Seriously, I dun even think it's the govt's fault. Really, the majority of us are just asking for it.

After all, when I state these issues, other people always tell me: If u dun like it here, why dun u just emigrate. And when I complain how much better our public transport can be, I'm given the reply: Why dun u buy a car? And when I juz don't understand why public housing is so ex, they would instead tell me to buy private if I can.

Now from just those 3 examples, we can tell that Singaporeans just do not have the capability to solve problems. Well, seriously, all 3 answers i got from them were serious alternatives that can be considered, but the fact is that the problems are still there.

They just have this mentality that they can make money from their work and avoid the problems stated earlier. I just need to remind my fellow friends here: Did our parents think of what we are thinking now? And how are most of them living now?

Anyway, my answer to a fren of mine who states that I can juz emigrate was "Why can't we change things? Why must we just run away from our problems. It's like I have this marriage on the wrecks, and instead of saving it, I just find another new woman and divorce the old one. After all, finding an alternative is easier than finding a solution."

Obviously, he was left speechless. And obviously if we have a high divorce rate, we will know why.

P.S. I still think that the PAP is a capable govt to quite some extent, but obviously a lot of issues can be handled better and that the situation can be better if handled properly.

Anonymous said...

LKY will live to see the failure of his illusion.

Anonymous said...

Kendy,

I think you should review what you wrote and spell out exactly what you want to say. I face palm trying to understand your sentences. An example,
"P.S. I still think that the PAP is a capable govt to quite some extent, but obviously a lot of issues can be handled better and that the situation can be better if handled properly."

Yes or no? Capable or or not capable? Issues can be handled better? Negative or positive? Situation can be handled better? Does that mean they handled the situation badly? So are they capable? Or you mean they are sometimes capable and sometimes not capable so it is ok. Yes?

Stanley Yang said...

Lucky Tan, You're still the best Singapore blogger ever.

I think you free up alot of minds who are brainwashed by PAP propaganda.

For that, I thank you.

Anonymous said...

Stanley Yang, meanwhile you are brainwashed by lucky.

Fievel said...

Wah, these days the trolls work really late into the night.

Anonymous said...

I hope LKY would live long enough to be put on trial for what he has done.

Let's see how eloquent he can be, when placed before a judge who isn't intimidated by his power.

Anonymous said...

Anon @ 23/10/2009 0051

I dun know what u r trying to imply, but u do sound like pple from the govt.

Mayb u r too smart or too intelligent that everything in life is a simple yes or no, alternative solutions or not, black n white.....

Yeah..I tnk u sound like them. *Please offer alternative solutions.....1+1=2.....if all the ministers were to concentrate in soccer, we would have won the world cup...if so and so is working in the corporate sector, he would have definitely be the CEO and earn many millions more than the millions he is earning now and risk the wrath of lesser mortals like us....*

Get the drift......

I am too stupid to understand Kendy. Allow me to paraphrase as best as I can.......the gist of what Kendy wrote (I hope I interpret correctly) is like what Lucky has written...there are alternatives and sometimes there are two or more solutions to a problem....we never know...that is why we discuss and deliberate through issues. These issues are deemed important because they affects us very much....

Looking at the current situation in Singapore, do u think issues had been discussed and deliberated thoroughly....I guess it is more likely a no...because there is no system to check and balance on those people who are making the decision...

Many people can act decisive....but how many people can act in a responsible and compassionate way...obviously not easy.....how much is enough....obviously establishing a yardstick is always open to challenges..however in singapore, this is not the case......

Actually, the examples offered by Kendy are not alternatives.....expensive public housing...buy private..how to?.....not happy here..migrate..how to?....not enough $$$...earn more lah...really how to?.....liquid soap expensive...use bar soap lah...how to really?......no extra $$$ for that meal out or occassional enjoyment....dun enjoy lah....really how to live life like that?

The problem is that for certain issues, there are no alternatives...there is a need to alleviate the situation..though not a complete solution...

Widening income gap...Jayarethnam..10 years...said that the current govt is not doing enough....take note is not doing enough...not solve the income widening issue..i.e. make everybody in Singapore hv equal pay.....that is not possible....

So for those pple who like to pick on pple..it has been hugely entertaining......but I, stupid and gullible and easily influenced reader of Lucky blog...has been interpreting Lucky writing wrongly.....maybe not as smart as some anonymous......that it is not about fault finding...not about solving the issues...but rather, has enough will and effort been done.......whether u can feel that all considerations have really been thought through.....

Anyway..for that so-called troll...dun u realise that u hv made life/blog more interesting by offering differing views..it would be better to be more objective and courteous towards other rreaders though.......dun u think it is interesting to hear what others think..........just the basis of talking about it...will open up many things....is it happening in Singapore?...i tnk u know the answer...n what u r suggesting...is dun talk abt..what the current govt do is the best..no question...

i tnk most pple (from a author) would agree that life is shades of grey rather than black and white.....n we sought to paint it black or white...though we dun succeed..but that is the gist of life anyway...

Kojakbt said...
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Kojakbt said...

Reply to anon 04:53

"Stanley Yang, meanwhile you are brainwashed by lucky."

Nobody is brainwashing anybody. I would like to believe that Singaporeans are all adults and can think for themselves what is right and what is wrong.

However, in order for anyone to come to the right conclusion, all info and data has to be disclosed (ie, full disclosure of all the facts).

PAP through its patriarchal control of our main stream media does not allow info that are negative to PAP to be published. It's like if you go to a hearing in court and all the positive evidences are disclosed while the negative ones are suppressed, it's only natural that the jury will find the defendant not guilty.

Thankfully, PAP has no stranglehold on the Internet. Here, both good and bad info can flow without inhibition. People can decide for themselves what they want to conclude. As newer net-savvy generations emerges in our society, it gets increasingly harder for PAP to control information flow like what they have been doing for the past 44 years.

Kojakbt said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kojakbt said...

"if so and so is working in the corporate sector, he would have definitely be the CEO and earn many millions more than the millions he is earning now and risk the wrath of lesser mortals like us....*

Let's take Yeo Cheow Tong as an example. It is my understanding that he now currently works in Lippo Group not as a CEO but as an advisor of sort. I certainly don't think Lippo Group is paying him a salary of millions of dollars like what he used to earn when he was a Minister.

Incidentally, if you search the net, there is write-up about him: www.yeocheowtong.com. I will leave it to the netizens to decide if the said scandal was true or not.

Anonymous said...

What I am trying to say is that previously, the govt were trying to justify for the millions they are paying the ministers...i.e to attract them into politics....that is the pay is pegged at two-thirds of the highest private sector pay....the so and so was the example used by the govt abt our previous PM not named lee.....it was said that if he had remained at the company, he would be so outstanding that the current govt could not prise him away...hence the million dollar pay....the report also sought to highlight the sacrifice they took......

point is...in life...where got certain one.....even if u can really identify this guy brilliant and the most intelligent lifeform on earth (somehow can identify lah...)....how to make sure that he would really contribute in positive ways.......there is no way to guarantee that....

Anonymous said...

Anon 22/10/09 02:20

Armed uprising will not happen here lah!

The only truly "armed" forces are the Gurkhas and they are the old man's hired guns.

U think our soldier(?) boys with the "universal" rounds got chance against them?

Anonymous said...

Social divide is inevitable lah.

We are imperfect, lazy humans. The moment the common folk relac, arseholes with no conscience will corrupt the system.

Republic\Dictatorship\Communism\Capitalism\etc. All same.

Anonymous said...

so i guess common folk must not relac lah....must always be on the ball against these arseholes.. : )

Well, agree that most humans are lazy.....but still do believe that humans generally have integrity...

Research showed that children have a strong sense of justice....

Well, at least all of us were children before.. ahahaha : )

Anonymous said...

Trolls? Hmmm, meaning those whose regular hours are not 8 to 5 and sleep at 11 pm are considered trolls" Shows there are some retards here too. Reminds me of the "sniggering" fool who finally stopped sniggering but then again could be the same as that fellow who ends sentences with .... I don't understand why but apparently it is his signature.

So asking this Kendy guy to come straightforward and to the point is bad? I gave an example of what he had written but you need to read the rest to know what I mean. You can't know what I mean as it shows in your post too. Long story but little substance. You call that para-phrasing? That "para-phrase" is longer than Kendy's, OMG.

Don't assume too much because you can be utterly wrong in saying "I dun know what u r trying to imply, but u do sound like pple from the govt. " If I am from the government will I write this in another posting?
"It leaves me speechless that our erstwhile MM who had umpteen times pronounced future scenarios for the likes of China, India, America and other nations cannot see what will happen in his own backyard. Now he throws up his hands and admit defeat that what has happen to Singapore is inevitable. In other words, it was unexpected and cannot be avoided. How can it be that he fail to see this coming? Sir, if you are not watching for us and not caring to lessen the pain, who will? Even if it is inevitable, if there is a will, there are many ways to at least deflect what has already hit us. Are we that defenseless and so inept that we just bear the brunt and say Que Sera Sera?"

I will leave you meander through and hope that may stop all those senseless sentences ending with ....because you mutilate your grammar and top it by abusing the punctuation marks.

Kendy said...

Seriously, there is no need to paraphrase what I just said. Because there are 2 impt things that I wanted to point out with regards to the 2nd post that I made on 22/10/09 22:26.

The 1st is that most of the Singaporeans are not trying to solve problems, they are avoiding them by using "alternatives", which may not be viable to them. Even if they are lucky enough to get out of the "problem", the rest of the Singaporeans are still in them, and therefore the problem is always there until someone stands up and ask for a real solution.

The 2nd is with regards to what I stated on my post script. I think someone was asking for me to have a clear position on what I was trying to say. In simple terms, I think they are good, but not perfect. Obviously you would like to see improvements on issues that you think are bothering you.

For example, if I am to state my clear positions on many policies, I would have to say that the PAP policies on GDP growth would be correct. If someone here asks me why, I will gladly state my opinion on why this is the case.

However, it is the domestic policies, in particular the public housing, public transport and public medical systems that irk me. I mean this is really where I don't get it. We can really well avoid the problems involved in the 3 systems, namely the cost and/or efficiency . Of course, if you want me to explain myself, I will gladly do so. But I guess this would have made my position very clear, and that there should be no more ambiguity on whether I think the PAP is capable or not. Let's just say that I have certain values that are different from the ruling government.

And seriously, I can't believe that Lucky's blog has gone down to become a platform for name calling. And of course, many of us here have benefited from his posts and views, whether we agree of disagree with him. (I think he has a bit of bias in his views lately.) For those who want to engage in a nonconstructive war of name calling, I am urging you not to do so to keep the credibility of this blog, so as to allow more moderates and mainstream people to join in the political discussion, regardless of their views. Isn't this kind of mature democracy what most of here want?

Keep the posts coming! Lucky!

Anonymous said...

You are barking up the wrong tree (see the haeding of Lucky;s post). Singaporeans making alternative decisions affect themsleves and those close to them. The decisions made by leaders affects everyone. To say the "social divide is inevitable" is saying the leaders did not see what will happen when they make those decisions that affects us today. Examples there are many, but I point out to the 2 child policy and the LUP.

This blog is credible and there is no necessity in asking Lucky to do anything as this is hos personal blog. Anyone is welcome to pay a visit and make his opinions known. Just be careful that what you write is credible and not based on assumptions. As there are trolls and retards in every blog/forum, as they exist in all countries, you just have to bear with them.

Anonymous said...

Yes..I am the one who gives senseless statements and mutilates the grammar...perhaps I belong to the lesser mortal who cannot see through and discuss purposefully with others in this blog....

What is the difference betweeen the pple at helm who are acting now and the way u reply.....glad that u mentioned the sniggering anonymous...but who really knows who it is...it could be lucky masquerading as two characters....please lah...this is the internet......

nobody asks for blog to be credible...it is preferable that one writes with facts and evidence...but then again, how to really verify....

sorry to disappoint u.....singlish and thoughts not as clear defined as that anonymous....

what u r saying..isnt it similar to the govt that things should be done like this and that..n we should discard english....look down on pple who cannot speak and write english well....

no tolerance for the *lesser* pple.......

*sigh*....even here also got pple who want put down other pple...sorry to disappoint u....

i must have committed a grave crime by mutilating the grammar n thus e entire english language..so i must shut up...

but i tnk lucky would have more compassion to leave my posts here....thank you : )

Anonymous said...

Pap won't change one lah. So vote out the pap.

If cannot vote them out, then disengage from pap policies lor. They tell u to do this u do otherwise. They tell u to believe this, of course u don't. There are many ways to civil disobedience & sooner or later the rot from within plus external disengagement will bring down the pap. So simple. Just be prepared when change comes.


kempitai

Kin said...

It's true, Kendy, I'm among these group of sinkies who feel that our housing, transport and standard of living are way too expensive. But really, what alternatives do I have to change that?

I don't know about you. I can't afford to migrate, I could lose my car and HDB anytime. As they are all belong to the bank. I don't really own anything. Am I supposed to feel happy and proud that I have PAP to thank for all these years of progress?

I feel I should be begging for Sg to return to Malaya. Do you think I would have a chance to own a kampung hut and a coconut tree?

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