Friday, March 02, 2012

Tharman : A Family with $1000 income can own a flat...

UPDATE:  In a comment, a reader pointed out that he or she lives quite comfortably as a single for under $1000. So the sensible thing to do is not to climb Everest with one arm tied behind your back by trying to start a family and own a home on an income of $1000 - its going to be a long hard painful struggle. 


Another commenter tried to read Tharman's mind and he did a good job. Tharman's claim is probably based on a combined grant of AHG + SHG [Link] that works out to be $60,000. But to qualify for these grants a man with low income of $1000 has to be married to a PR or citizen - this is an assumption because many low income workers have not been able to get PR for their foreign spouses who are granted only long term visit passes. Assuming he can find a 2-rm flat costing about $100,000 near his workplace for $1000 (it has to be near otherwise transport costs will drain his $1000 income),  he will service a 30 yr loan of about $40K paying $160 from his CPF every month.. Assuming none of the numerous problems crop up during this 30 yrs and he lives a spartan lifestyle and doesn't have children(?), he owns the flat after working continuously for 3 decades. So what does he do the day he stops work? He probably has to reverse-mortgage his home back to the HDB because he has no money to retire. So what is the purpose of this whole exercise? ....To show that you can struggle for 30 yrs to own a flat that you have to give back when you finish paying....and prove Minister Tharman right!? To perform this feat with no financial buffer serving as margin for error...many of these families will lose their home along the way due to unemployment, illness, emergencies, inflation in cost of living etc. 


You try to make those low wages do wonders when you should be asking why wages are so low - no developed nation has workers who work full time earning $1000 a month except in Singapore. Minister Tharman in making his extraordinary claim simply expose the extraordinary income disparity the PAP system has created. 
END OF UPDATE

In an earlier posting, I wrote about a family with an income of $1200 living in a rented flat not having enough money to see the doctor when they get sick. The mother has not seen a doctor for 10 years even when she gets sick according to The New Paper.



Minister Tharman now makes this claim that a family with income of $1000 can afford to own a flat. Maybe he forgot to tell us his assumptions. Engineers will tell you that you can always adjust your assumptions to get the conclusions you want. The family has to live on maggie noodles. They cannot get sick and see the doctor. They have to wear cheap clothes that last for decades. They cannot furnish or renovate the flat they purchase. They cannot have school-going children. If they have children, there is no budget for entertainment - no movies, no electricity for computers, no handphones, etc. They have to walk and not take the bus if the destination is within 2 km to save money. They cannot go out unless it is for work or groceries. They have to bathe once a day (or every 2 days) only to keep the water bill down. If the bread winner break his leg during the 30 years he has to service his housing loan he can set it back himself and go to work the next day because low paid workers are fired if they take too many days of MC.

What are Tharman's assumptions?
Someone commented in an earlier posting that a Canadian MP tried to live on $600 welfare to find out if it is possible to do so in Canada. Somebody from the PAP should take up Minister Tharman's challenge to raise a family ..and own a flat with an income of $1000....otherwise this is a fairytale created with a busload of assumptions.

129 comments:

Anonymous said...

The pap is an evil machine filled with poisons and hatred. Any good person who join the pap will emerge an evil one. His good brains will turn into a warped and distorted one. His good heart will turn black. Tharman and Hri Kumar are two very good examples of what will happen to good and talented people who join the pap.

Anonymous said...

I would really like to see someone from the YPAP or PAP team volunteer on this exercise for 1 month.

Anonymous said...

i'm a divorcee with 3 children. last year i tried to apply for a BTO 3 room flat in woodlands (at that time i was earning 1.5k/mth), the hdb officers work out the amount i have to pay in cash - 70k, inclusive resale levy and downpayment. after consideration i decided it's a no-go. i need the cash(about 60k) i got from the sale of matrimonial flat from the divorce for rainy weather.

i've given up on buying a hdb flat. even for a 2room hdb flat, i'll have to pay a lot in cash. it's certainly not affordable and i have to ensure i have a job for the next 25 years. and not to mention the 40k sitting in my cpf account will be wiped out if i were to buy a flat now.

right now i can only afford to rent a 1 room hdb flat for $165/mth. it's insane!

Anonymous said...

Live on $1000 per month?

Can lah, because I did it every month what, and still got leftover of 100 to 400 dollars, depending on whether got visit doctor or extra entertainment.

My situation (it is real, no assumptions)
1. Single, and no need to support others.
2. no housing or car instalments.
3. cook at least 1 meal a day.
4. for entertainment, mainly surf Net or visit Lucky Tan's blog.

But I don't know how many people are like me. Maybe not that many.

Anonymous said...

SINGAPORE FAIRY TALES
---------------------

1. You can buy an HDB flat on an income of $1,000/month.

2. You will live long enough to get your hands on your CPF money.

Any other bloggers care to add to this list of fairy tales?

Anonymous said...

Makes me wonder, why do these people up there need to be paid millions if 1000 is able to go so far ? Perhaps their pay should be much lower ?

Zhi xu khan pin fang huo, bu xu bai xin Dian tang !
: official are allowed to set fire while the lesser mortal can even light a lamb.

Hate this blatant double standard in sin !

Anonymous said...

Singaporeans can't wait to catch up on this fabulous $1k salary scheme touted by DPM Tharman.

I also can't wait to catch the advertisement by HDB chief who will start song & dance about "Size of your salary does not affect quality of your HDB living".

Cue music.

Anonymous said...

LMAO - someone said maybe Tharman meant $1k salary can buy ...flat screen tv.

So we misunderstood them again..LOL

With the example given by the single person above, it is possible. But for a family? Like Vikram Nair say - show me the money?!! And tell me which "hawker center" for the meals too..just so everybody can follow the formula very closely.

Kobe DD said...

The pap is an evil machine filled with poisons and hatred. Any good person who join the pap will emerge an evil one. His good brains will turn into a warped and distorted one. His good heart will turn black. Tharman and Hri Kumar are two very good examples of what will happen to good and talented people who join the pap.

Anonymous said...

"Somebody from the PAP should take up Minister Tharman's challenge to raise a family ..and own a flat with an income of $1000....otherwise this is a fairytale created with a busload of assumptions."
Lucky Tan

I thought PAP was already challenged in 2011 and they won?

So who is Lucky Tan and why would PAP want to bother themselves with Lucky Tan's challenge?

Anonymous said...

//I thought PAP was already challenged in 2011 and they won?
So who is Lucky Tan and why would PAP want to bother themselves with Lucky Tan's challenge?//

True. In that case why bother dragging feet on Hougang, they should just announce walk-over for WP.

Anonymous said...

There is nothing wrong with the statement "A Family with $1000 income can own a flat..."

What is missing is how much of a loan does that family need to take to put a roof over their head and we're talking about the basic necessities of life (housing, food, education and medical).

By extension, since a BMW is cheaper than a flat, "A Family with $1000 income can own a BMW ... it's whether they choose to".

Anonymous said...

His assumptions are:

1) First time buyer so can buy directly from HDB, borrow from HDB, can get CPF grants, no need to pay resale levy.

2) Low income (he said $1K) so can qualify for maximum grants of $60K (AHG and SHG).

3) 2 room BTO flat which is going for around $90 - 95K (Fernvale Lea BTO).

You can do the sums. Price of flat $95K, minus $60K grants, means cost of flat to you is $35K.

Upfront cash outlay 10% or $3.5K, hopefully you have enough CPF savings or strike Toto. Remaining $31.5K, take HDB loan of 30 years.

Monthly loan payment about $130 (from HDB loan calculator). If you get CPF, CPF can can cover and you have some excess CPF for savings. If your $1K is nett pay, you pay out of pocket. For both cases, your take home pay is about $850.

See? QED. But don't talk about entertainment lah, go overseas holiday lah, watch movie lah, etc etc. Plus the flat will be located at some super ulu place with no market no hawker centre. Quality of life - BEST.

Anonymous said...

To anon 16:11

So on those assumptions, this person takes home pay is $850 cash, and he has a family (say of 3 total) - you have to spend on food, school fees, transport, medical, utility bills etc..forget about entertainment. This is literally end-to-end. how much of GST vouchers can one qualify again?

Wow..this $1k really sound like a super size rubber band.

Anonymous said...

一千元大过牛车轮

Anonymous said...

Many assumptions.

1. No need to pay any resale levy -- that means never buy any HDB before, otherwise the cashflow and figures affected liao.

2. Can only buy 2-rm BTO in ulu area where there is usually no jobs to be found. That means long travelling time on buses and MRT. Noth-East Line MRT is also expensive. You also need to wake up super early every day for work.

3. The low-wage earners in this family cannot be jobless or retrenched -- they need to keep working until they die. Becoz their CPF is almost zero and their take-home salary is too low to have much savings.

4. The whole family must have super genes and super fit --- cannot have any serious or long-term illness at all. Not even accidents. Must be totally accident-free for 30+ years. Or at least until the children are old enough to go and work and hopefully earn much more than $1000.

5. No paid entertainment at all. Not even taking joy-rides on bus or MRT. No MacDonalds or KFC (ok maybe once a year). Basically it's a subsistence lifestyle. Everyday stare at walls or talk to each other, or go work, or go school, or sleep.

6. I think after 10+ years in this kind of life, many people will be tempted to break the law hoping to strike toto, like steal, rob, cheat, work for loansharks etc. Or join gangs just to break the monotony of life. At most go jail also similar life -- stare at walls, sleep on floor. At least no need to worry about money for food or see doctor.

Anonymous said...

Wah! So good!
$1,000 can buy so many things.

Then why Ministers need more than $1,000/month?

Anonymous said...

Imagine you are at Changi beach...

"Push this sampan out to sea. Then use this paddle and row towards the rising sun until you reach Australia."

"Yes, you can get there."

BTW, see how generous I am to help you travel overseas?

Anonymous said...

If Minister Tharman shows Singaporeans that he and his family can live on $1000 per month for a year then all Singaporeans will then believe the claim he made

Anonymous said...

Think Mr Tharman is disconnected from the daily struggles that a low income Singaporen is facing :(

Anonymous said...

No wonder there are so many found in Bedok Reservoir. Is this what the GROs in the GRCs are telling these people? I don't know what to say...

ARe they going to come up with a nice tv commercial and glossy booklet like what MBT has done to tell the daft people (especially those from china coming on $1000-2000) salary?

This govt is beyond hope. And they have the other DPM Teo KPKB about needing more immigrants but will tell us the white paper only at Q4 end year, meantime, quietly importing and still hiring these chinese workers from Wuhan. They want these people to come in at the backdoor while people have not given them any approval/ok to proceed.

I can only say they are now desperate for new votes.
This island is sinking.

Anonymous said...

Its perfectly ok

leave the casinos for tourists only
including Orchard rd, Zoo,cinemas,shopping centres.

All of us will stay inside HDB housing estates that are furthest away from anywhere, remain inside our flats to catch lizards.

We will remain DAFT for the next century.

Anonymous said...

I think they are still NOT aware of
the people' struggle....
Why don't ask some ministers to
live in a 3 rooms flats for 3 mths
and get real for ONCE ??

If a family with $1,000/ is enough to get by, WHY NEED $1,000,000/ for a
Minister ?

Anonymous said...

Foreign workers are complaing that they are struggling with have to live on what they are paid. Sorie Mr, Tharman but you are living in a daydream with your big salary that is why perhaps you and many of your PAP partners think thisd way. Ask the housewifes in the market if you dare and see what
$1K buys.

Anonymous said...

PAP thinks singaporEns are stupid

Anonymous said...

Cow and his pig farmers analogy may fuck up housing in SIN.

You can't build "with a heart" without finding people to pay into sellers( who are the exploiters here?)pockets who some are enjoying another cherry from the COW DUNG.

The more you build, and logically, you have to GROW the population.

You have to build without farking up people's assets!

Anonymous said...

Singapore Satire

Khaw Boon Wan's GRC is Sembawang GRC.

Sembawang is quite ulu and undeveloped.

I wonder if Khaw will be pissed off with Tharman;
when the next Meet-the-People-Session;
There is a long queue of $1,000/month income earners;
all asking for HDB flats from Khaw;

Then maybe if Khaw not prepared;
Khaw will have to say;
Yes, can buy;
But the Singapore constitution never say when you will get your HDB flat!

Anonymous said...

What Khaw was saying is.....mah fukked up housing and not the govts open door policies that admitted too many people into the housing market.

Aiyah, Mah easy to fuk mah. And, will his Buddhist compassionate ways open up way for every citizen to use old age and any spend away their monies so they can get generous housing solution for him?

Aiyooo...expect more Buddhist cleber sayings....lol

Anonymous said...

You think oppositions will question his wisdom? ...hehehe...over your dead body. They are waiting for the gahmen to go...COCK UP in housing problems haha

Anonymous said...

It is very difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom. It is very difficult for a rich minister to enter the life of a poor man esp with all his Party baggages.

Anonymous said...

To the 60.1% who for some reason refused to use their critical thinking faculties.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Y_tfHOZT4

Anonymous said...

To the 60.1% who for some reason refused to use their critical thinking faculties.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Y_tfHOZT4

Anonymous said...

Let's see how much a family of 4 persons, consisting of father, mother and 2 young children who are studying in mainstream schools, is spending per month.

As this family comes from low income group, the parents earn a combined income of $1000 per month.

Let's breakdown this family expense:

Food
====
Food includes breakfast, lunch & dinner to be consumed at home when not working or schooling and to be consumed at the market during working hours and school canteen during school periods.
Father - $6/day
Mother - $6/day
Older Child - $3/day
Younger Child - $3/day
Total - $16/day

Total = 30 X $18 = $540/month


Transport
=========
Transport includes to and from
work & schools.
Working Father - $3/day
Working Mother - $3/day
Older Child - $1.50/day
Younger Child - $1.50/day
As parents need to work on Saturday,
Number of working days in a month = 26
Children only go to school from Mon to Fri.
Number of school days in a month = 22

Total = 26 X $6 + 22 X $3 = $222/month


Utilities
=========
Electricity, Gas & Water = $120/month


Phone Bill
==========
Because family is too poor, family cannot afford to own any mobile and internet subscription.
Instead, family only owns Fixed Line Tel

Average Usage plus subscription = $15/month


Medical Bill
============
Can only afford to have one person in the family to fall sick in a month.
Family can only afford to visit polyclinics for medical consultation.

Medical Bill = $16/month


School Fees
===========
School Fees of 2 children = 2 X $5.50 = $11/month


Children activities
===================
As children are studying, they need books, assessment books, exercise books, stationery and to attend extra activity outside normal school hours.

Children activities fees = $30/month


Hair Cut Fee
============
While mother and daughter do not need to have their hair cut every month,
they still need to trim their hair every few months.
On average hair cut fee per person per month = $5

Hair Cut Fee = 4 X $5 = $20/month


Clothing
========
Although family does not need to buy clothing every month,
family still need to put aside $10 every month so that they
have $120 at the end of the year to buy new clothing for the whole
family of 4 persons.

Clothing = $10/month




In summary

Food = $540
Transport = $222
Electricity,Water,Gas = $120
Phone = $15
Medical Fee = $16
School Fee = $11
Children Activities = $30
Hair Cut = $20
Clothing = $10

Overall Expense = $984

After minus away overall expense of $984 from both parents combined income of $1000,
this family is left with $16
By the way, the above estimate is very conservative. Most of the figures should be at higher amount than the estimated values. This means that $1000 is not enough to survive in Singapore.

Let's say this family is very lucky to keep their expense less than $1000/month.


If PAP is correct that a family income of $1000 can own a HDB flat,
then from the above analysis,

$16/month is enough to pay for
monthly housing loan,
monthly loan interest,
property tax,
town council fee,
house maintenance fee like
repair of pipe when it leaks, replacement of bulb when it blows off,
buying of rice cooker when it breakdown, etc.

It looks very clear that PAP's logic is wrong. Definitely, $1000 of household income is not enough to own a HDB flat.

Let's give PAP a chance.
As PAP is made up of elites, definitely PAP has rocket science
answer to explain to Citizens of Singapore that a household income of $1000 can own a HDB flat in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

Simpler way. Give you a shovel. Start digging anywhere, no need to go Changi. You will reach Down Under

Anonymous said...

Tan Chuan Jin did the calculations and assumptions here.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/tan-chuan-jin/earn-1000-a-month-and-you-want-to-buy-a-flat/338028739573241

Anonymous said...

Talk rubbish until the Khaw jump over the buddha wall or the wall collapse under the Buddha backside

Anonymous said...

More will dumb their homes and who is gonna buy? Your grand chogong?

Gintai_昇泰 said...

This is getting out of hand ! Trying to fool the ppl or are they living in their own world? What loads of rubbish is this? Quite shocking to hear from a DPM! It shows that they really don't know how the ppl are suffering. Sigh ....

Anonymous said...

Instead of asking LTK to write a novel, Tharman should write one himself and send it to the Canadian MP. I am sure the Canadian MP would love to learn a thing or two from him.

Anonymous said...

Really sinkaporeans.Hmmm....time to abandon ship?

Anonymous said...

What the govt is trying to do is fark up the middle class to help the bottom feeders while the upper class people,like themselves with huge self rewards, are basically unaffected - with their kind of pay, even an earthquake will not shake the remaining follicles on their bald heads.

Anonymous said...

May be he meant USD...

Anonymous said...

Really sinkaporeans.Hmmm....time to abandon ship?

3/3/12 00:43

Not a bad idea :)

Lye Khuen Way said...

The first Anon comment said it all.
"Any good person who join the pap will emerge an evil one"

That ,my PM, is why the PAP is finding it near impossible to attract good man/women from the private sector to join them.

Even the Finance Minister, whom I use to have high regards, is now spining tales that will give most of us nightmares....

Anonymous said...

If this is so blatantly impossible then I am seriously worried about having him as a finance minister. Either he is just being ill served by his adviser or he is just lying through his teeth. Jeez. Its kinda scary.

Anonymous said...

$1000 income could own a flat? Really? Does this Tharman has a degree in bullshit?

They often quote extreme examples to justify a state of affairs that all is fine.

The government is trying to paint a picture which is not even a median representation of the reality.

They know the people are disunited and struggling but they don't care.

Netizens are upset about PM Lee taking Temasek Emeritus to task. Yet, they weren't able to find out you TRE and TOC were.

People were worried that they might have their votes discovered if they elected a party whose policy is against the incumbent.

Yet, it is this same bullshitting government who can't even find a limping terrorist.

If they couldn't find a limping man, what makes you think they could find many other things.

I like to celebrate Mr. Tan's rendition of the HDB problem that will hit all of us in our 60s.

25 years from now, we hope that singaporeans don't have to reverse mortgage the very apartment that they had paid over their lives.

What sort of National Service are we doing here in Singapore?

Anonymous said...

In this powerful message, Joseph Prince explains how Christ has more than met every claim of God’s justice through His finished work. Get ready to receive 120 percent of His grace and provision! 

http://www.lightsource.com/ministry/joseph-prince-ministries/receive-your-120-percent-restoration-today-254545.html

Holy Cow theory(warning: by faith only can receive), lay your hands on the head of a beast( think of your savior at this point) and transfer 120 percent of your nonsense to the animal and in return, receive 120 percent, and much much more(to be greedy at this point is ok), of health, favors,prosperity,energy and youthfulness etc etc. and finally, utter...It's mine,it's mine...hallelujah!

Yes, he actually illustrated it. Your nonsense transferred into the beast and the beast sensibility transferred into you through a two way process. No wonder he makes so much cow sense and more, much more cow sense restored evidently

We must get our gov people to discuss this divine solution and providence  in parliament because ....it bloody( pun unintended) works...it must work because the pastors command an international audience and international holy cow super abundance revenue as prove of his anointing.

Really it works because tens of thousands of locally bred and intelligent people, many hold public office, including professionals,judges, educators,doctors,lawyers, businessmen etc etc actually believe this holy stuff. Wow.

Please get this stuff into parliament and solve all the people's financial to business problems.

Holy stuff, respect respect.

Anonymous said...

if this be the case why then do they need such high
salaries?
His rationale and justification on living on $1k seems
like 1 for you 10000 for me!!!

where is the credibility?

Anonymous said...

I think the curse of being Singaporeans is idiocy

Anonymous said...

Poor Sinkaporeans are destined to Sink-a-poor! They may own a ulu flat by working for life to feed the rich, they may not have children as they would surely suffer!

Anonymous said...

Anon 17:21 is right.

At the end of it all, what sort of BASIC life experience is Singapore providing its people?

In time, NEW citizens will take all the opportunities and boss the native born Singaporeans.

Give it another 15 years and you'll see it much much clearly.

Many singaporeans are now planning to leave, at the very least, retire out of singapore.

It will be next to impossible to retire in singapore in 20-25 years time.

The cost of living will shoot up real high. Even civil servants can't afford a hdb these days or to retire.

Anonymous said...

Amen…Pastor J. Prince, When we trust in Lord Jesus Christ, we make an exchange–our sin for His righteousness. At His crucifixion our sin was poured into Christ. His righteousness is poured into us at our conversion or transformation. This is what Christians means by Christ atonement for sin. God offers to trade His righteousness for our sin, something of immeasurable worth for something completely worthless. We should be grateful for His kindness…Allelujah!!!

Anonymous said...

Our government has lost touch with the ground. Too high up in their ivory towers that they don't know how much 1kg of rice costs.

I expect more murders and bloodshed on the streets against foreigners.

They will definitely be more assaults and fights and rising hatred against pinoys, PRCs, India INdians on the streets.

These foreigners think they own this island.

As mentioned years ago, PAP is aiming to bring in as much millionaires into singapore with the aim that more millionaires will come over here and place their seed money. That way singapore could leverage on their investments and all.

That is actually the present economic policy. The last 10 years, the economic policy was: build 2 gambling centers, market them as resorts and they got away with it.

All that while, they tested it with the Kranji Racehorse in Kranji. Nobody said a word.

Now, they're testing with bringing in cheap foreigners for their GLCs and replacing the lack of babies born herec(i don't know what the fuck the singapore women is doing in this country?, fucking chee bye, no NS, no ICT, no RT, they spend their times enjoying starbucks and going on holidays and shopping while the fucking singaporean men struggle for 2 and half years NS, ICTs, and RTs?)

What is the singaporean women doing? They're not making babies.

Blame on these pampered ladies.

You are fucking short changed my singaporean men. LMAO

Anonymous said...

Imagine the following scenario: A father tells his little girl, “Come here, girl. Mummy says that you have been playing by the roadside. Is that true?” “Yes, Daddy. I am sorry.” “Sorry? How many times have I told you not to play near the road? Come here! Lie down on the road and stretch out your legs!”

Daddy drives his car over his little girl’s legs. You can hear the sound of bones being crushed and the poor girl screaming in pain!

“Now, darling, you know that Daddy loves you. And Daddy did that to teach you a lesson, that playing by the roadside is dangerous.”

You are probably shaking your head in horror by now, wondering which sick father would do that. Yet, there are many Christians who believe that our heavenly Father does the same thing. They say that He gives people sicknesses, accidents, earthquakes and death to teach them lessons.

But Jesus said, “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.” Jesus is the nature of God in action. Throughout the Gospels, we see Jesus or God going about healing the sick. If God wants some people sick, then there should be at least one incident in the Gospels where you see Jesus saying, “Behold, your complexion is too lovely, receive leprosy,” or “Blindness is good for you. Remain blind.” But no, never once! In fact, Jesus “went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil”. (Acts 10:38) That’s the heart of God.

As a father, if your child is sick and in pain, your heart just wants him well. How much more your heavenly Father! My friend, God does not give your child a sickness to teach both of you some lesson or to glorify Himself. To think so is to talk out of a warped mind bound by religion! And Christianity is not a religion. It is a loving relationship with your Father in heaven.

Beloved, hear God speaking this to your heart today: “I will never punish you for your sins because they have been punished in My Son’s body. I do not wish you ill. I will not take away your child or give you a car wreck to teach you some lesson. My heart always wants My children well and joyful!”

Anonymous said...

Like that also can make a living? LOL

Anonymous said...

When the greying tsunami hits, $1000 flats is not impossible.

Chan Joon Yee said...

This is what the Chinese call 纸上谈兵. Military strategies on paper. In a real war, things may not work out that way.

There are so many factors and hidden costs involved not just in business but in household finances as well. People who earn more than enough will never be able to visualise the problems that the struggling folks out there face.

Anonymous said...

"Tharman : A Family with $1000 income can own a flat..."

Hello all,

Do not forget that Tharman is able to say this because he has a mandate in GE 2011 from the people, maybe even including those who earn $1000 income.

You want your views to matter, go and get your mandate from the people in GE 2016!

You all argue here, at most just release steam only lah.

Anonymous said...

"You all argue here, at most just release steam only lah."
Anon 3/3/12 10:29

Ya, it is also very safe to release steam this way, especially those many kiasu and kiasee ANON posters, myself included.

Anonymous said...

This is the 1st time in 70 yrs. I have heard this scripture presented this way. I believe this is true but then shouldn’t we also consider the nails in His hands that represents breaking poverty from our lives? I understand that the hands represent our means with which to ger wealth & the nails represent a release from the curse of poverty. It seems to me that we need to consider all Jesus endured for us to set us free from sin, death, the grave, hell, sickness, poverty, & all the curses of unrighteousness. I know that I surely willl from no on! Thank You, Pastor Prince for sharing this insight with us.

Anonymous said...

When there are enough stupid people around, change is inevitable.

Vote for change!

Anonymous said...

Believe in the Jesus Christ, from God's words in the Bible.

Do not add to His revealed words.

Believe in Jesus, do not follow or believe in your "Pastor", JP. False teachers draw people to themselves using God's name.

Sufferings are part of God's sovereign way to humble the proud, us and draw us to Him to depend, trust and know Him.

Verily, verily unless a man be born again, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Unless a man deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me, he cannot be my disciple.

Be humble read the Scriptures carefully and take God's meaning in context as it is, and ask God to teach and we surrender to Him.
And He will be with us.

The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness comprehend not.
The world and its lusts will pass away, but the man who do the will of God will live forever. (This is God's grace).

Anonymous said...

He's the same person that Temasick Holdings reports to.

Anonymous said...

I've never knew that A FAMILY of $1K monthly income can own a flat. Very happy that Tharman made an effort to bring it up in ParlIment so that every one knows this.

But if it's not because of the challenge from Gerald of WP, Tharman would probanly not mention this and most of us will still be in the dark. Many thanks to Gerald!

Anonymous said...

Very much sound like Khaw saying that $8 can afford to go for heart by-pass. I am very tired of PAP mislead the peopole.

Anonymous said...

you can do a calculation, the 1000 sgd income family don't even save enough in the cpf for minimum sums - cpf and medisave.

Anonymous said...

We need to vote in more Opposition MPs.

I'm tired of having to keep an eye on this Pro Alien Party government.

And risking a lawsuit in the process of defending the future of my children

Anonymous said...

I hope if anyone knows anyone who is suffering with $1k salary, please come forward and tell/share the stories.

If I believe that is achievable, then I also believe pigs will fly.

Anonymous said...

Loss hair and now brain ;)

Anonymous said...

我听到政客讲了一个故事。

故事里的事,说是就是,不是也是。
故事里的事,说不是就不是,是也不是。

Anonymous said...

I getting very tired of PAP style already. They still treat Singaporeans like moron as if we don't possess a thinking cap. To add insult to injury, Straits Times is meek and playing a total useless role. To market a product that is not prudence to the lower rung of this society is digging too deep into this society to raid the last people savings. I am totally disgusted by such move.

Anonymous said...

Mr Tharman,

it may be possible back 30 years ago..but now..I doubt so, else why are you paying yourselves so much ?

Anonymous said...

Actually Tharman only said $1000 income can own a flat. So based on the Maths provided by Khaw, Tharman is right.

But he did not said $1000 income is enough to raise a family, did he?

If he said that, I will scold him and wish he be voted out!

Get it? Hahahahaha!

Anonymous said...

I will only be convinced if the government can stage a reality show and feature one of their MPs living on a 1K monthly wage for 1 year. Lead by example.

Anonymous said...

Asking $1000 family income to buy 2 room flat is brilliant, why?

Do you even know what is unspoken about the poor buying 2 room flats?

The poor has always been able to get 1 or 2 room rental flats from government at very cheap rentals...

Government figure out, instead of building flats and renting it out at loss (the rental are super cheap, can never recover the cost of the land, and building cost), why not get the poor to buy the 2 room flats...

At least they can recover a significant amount of the sunken cost compared to just renting it out...

The poor would now be motivated not to be delinquent in their payments as they are now "owners"...

Brilliant isn't it? Milking money out of the poor...

Orwell76

Anonymous said...

$1,000/- income can own a flat. Wow pian, now get marboro man back.

Don't raid our reserves ok. Hahahaha.

Now it is vogue for priority to be given to social foundation (ok ok not course correction).

Anonymous said...

It is not the flood of subsidized housing we are concern about but the drought of buyers for these money making subsidized flats we are worried.

Are we seducing the greed in people by offering them another cheap forbidden fruit while they get rid of their home or spouse to the highest bidder?

If everybody starts thinking along that line to a comfortable retirement,and to the relieve of the govt(that's what they think), they will one day wake up with... hell notes.

Anonymous said...

Currently, people(mostly locals) are masturbating each other when times are good.

But you can't keep your cock up all the time. From masturbating each other, they will turn to masturbating the gahmen.

I think our gahmen is one big fat cock full of cum.

Let's see how long the good time will last.

Anonymous said...

The apex of the pyramid cannot be unless a broad base exists.

It is in the interest of everyone who aspires to be near or at the apex to ensure this base is always there.

Its tough work, but someone has to do it.

There is no such thing a flat earth.

Anonymous said...

Who is looking for a flat earth?

Two great Sins. One is to listen to the intellectuals

Second, is to follow the intellectuals

Anonymous said...

Some dim wiited people probably don't understand the meaning of mutual masturbation. There is plenty of money in masturbation. The govt encourages it and watches over it like a hawk. The govt enjoys masturbation and masturbates very often too

Anonymous said...

More like a fairy tale, make believe story cooked up by tharman.

Anonymous said...

LOL - you are not going to believe this.

Ikea just launched a flat-packed DIY house for $80,000. Way much cheaper than our HDB, and you own the outside/inside furnishings too.

I rather than this disposable house and pay ikea than to pay the blood-sucking govt. Only condition - must be outside Singapore!!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2108775/Ikea-launches-80-000-flat-pack-DIY-house.html

Anonymous said...

I remembered 20 years ago I paid about $200 per month for petrol, $20 for cookiing gas and $100 plus for pub bill. Today, I paid $700 for petrol, $80 for gas and $500 for pub bill!

Anonymous said...

I remembered 20 years ago I paid about $200 per month for petrol, $20 for cookiing gas and $100 plus for pub bill. Today, I paid $700 for petrol, $80 for gas and $500 for pub bill!

4/3/12 17:53

I bet you masturbate often too

Anonymous said...

Yes, 1k can own the flat & be slaved 30 years.
Mathematically cannot be disputed. But life is not so simple like 1+1 gives you 2 right?

The people at MND put all their arguments very coldly & logically - assuming that the person's income will not be stagnant & that his life condition will improve (Upside)

In the same breadth, they would refuse to assume other external factors that may derail one's ability to afford this (Downside) such as wife/children/job school /health/parents/ contingencies etc..

Many reasons have been given

1) $1k or $5k everybody else has the same external challenges - nothing is in consistent good state (except the salary & inflation !)

2) you just have to live within your means

3) besides, a home is better than homeless

4) Many/I've done it before, overcome & survived so can you.

All nice sounding, but if it were that easy, then HDB should just publish its own self-help book, people can learn to seize control of their circumstances (which is ever changing so rapidly by policies introduced by this PAP govt) and happiness is within their reach.

And people with chicken rice taste should know better to stick to porridge but make it 1 meal a day. Besides, sweatshops are better than no shops right? So when your parents feed you junk food, you really should not complain because it is better than no food. Just accept that 'Better than Nothing" is a brilliant and humane defense to "I can do better still".

The shining examples of "If I can do it so can you" playbook - those very same recipe for Arthur must work for Ah Kow too. One must wonder why on earth a $10,000 salary is insufficient for our Leaders but a $1000 salary is sufficient for us?
Oh I get it, because of meritocracy and our levels of talents.

Just remember - Only in Singapore that the poor is better off, and the $1k salaried can own a flat. Consider that your starting chips in life, and whether you hit the jackpot or not, is entirely up to you.

Anonymous said...

Sum ppl just a lot of timetowrite rubbish

Anonymous said...

I think Tharman must be talking to the PRCs 小明 小孙 who we need to become bus-drivers here in singapore.

Anonymous said...

So true!

Yes, Singaporeans! you should know better, having a home is better than no home like in Syria or Timor Leste

You are all so ungratefull! we give you hawker centres, free WSQ training, workfare, vouchers and growth package.. still you complain!

Well, dont ask me to help with another youth olympics, APEC,CHOGM or some other "world" standard get to-gether.. dont ask me to say nice things about you too.

Didn't someone described us as DAFT?

Xianlong said...

ocbc ride just ended. Tricycle ride 100m for kids 2-5 cost $26. $26 for a frickin 100m tricycle ride is 2.6% of $1000/mth income. It is a depressing state of affairs with such disparity.

Here in clementi central i noticed a growing boom in cobblers(used to be 1) who are old folks struggling to make ends meet. Another sad situation.

Anonymous said...

Giving them 60k grant, he might as well gives them free rental for 1 bedroom rental unit. about $165 rental a month, equate to 1.98k a year. for 60k, the family can live for 30 years free! And the poor man can have some saving from his CPF.

Best if government puts this grant into his CPF account,with a 2.6% interest (maybe for some of them 4% because they have less than $60,000) The interest alone which is $1560 can already pay for the rental... so why the big hooha...

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Giving them 60k grant, he might as well gives them free rental for 1 bedroom rental unit. about $165 rental a month, equate to 1.98k a year. for 60k, the family can live for 30 years free! And the poor man can have some saving from his CPF.

This is very sensible. But, wait, if you sell that flat for $100K, GDP goes up by $110K (+ legal fees and what else). Lawyers get richer. Banks get richer. And GDP bonus will go up.

Anonymous said...

Count your blessings. Tell me which country on earth can you afford to buy a house with a $1K income?

Moreover, the house will appreciate over time! The poor people are indeed well taken of in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

Maybe Mediacorpse in conjunction with the Shit Times should do a reality show with 1 sample family surviving on only S$1000 for a month to prove our PAP Ministers are telling the truth, like those hard truths.

Anonymous said...

While Singaporeans can pay for their 2-rm on $1000 salary, PRs have it better!

They can move back to their home country, rent out their 4-rm for $2000 a month while servicing their mortgage of $1280 only!

Read this article if you don't believe: publichouse.sg

Anonymous said...

To : Anon 6/3/12 17:02.

Just to add some more information. My friends from China are doing that. As the condition for PR need to have income. They just set up a company to contribute CPF. Or contribute cpf to a friend's company.

Anonymous said...

(below is my email in 2 parts to PM Lee)

Dear PM Lee

I refer to Mr Tharman's statement on the ability of Singaporeans with $1000/month salary to purchase an HDB flat.

2 Ministers Khaw Boon Wan, Josephine Teo and now Tan Chuan Jin have also weighed in to support a statement which heartlanders have perceived to be far-fetched.

3 The government should have provided facts and figures ie. the number of Singaporeans with $1000/month salary who have purchased a 2 room flat etc. to dispel our doubts. (Is the $60000 grant readily available to such a needy Singaporesn or are there conditions upon conditions? Are needy Singaporeans too naive to be aware of such a grant (windfall)?)

4 Many Singaporeans with housing problems have raised the issue with their MPs. If MPs have been assisting, why aren't most needy Singaporeans buying 2 room HDB flats instead of renting? Why is there a need for 50000 rental flats to begin with?



Illustration - family earning $1200 (married couple with 2 children)

Assuming average price of 3 rm costing $113,000 with maximum grant taken. (2012 Jan launch)

CPF for housing @ 23% - 276
HDB loan for 30 years - 453
Cash outlay (177)
Net cash available -783

Conclusion - Does Tharman expect a family to live on $783/month?


Illustration - family earning $1500 (married couple with 2 children)

Assuming average price of 3 rm costing $113,000 with maximum grant taken. (2012 Jan launch)

CPF for housing @ 23% - 345
HDB loan for 30 years - 453
Cash outlay (108)
Net cash available -1047

Conclusion - extremely tough due to high cost of living. Less necessities like phone, utilities etc. can each member live on less than $10 including food?

There must be systemic problems when a large percentage of Singaporeans require handouts from the government yearly. People have dignity.

By Tharman's definition of a medium-sized flat, it can only mean a 3 room HDB (60 to 65 square metres) as a 4 room HDB is out of the question. (see prices below)

Anonymous said...

5 One has to assume that it is more likely those who are in need do not qualify for the entire $60000 grant. If such is the case, Tharman should not have used an example rooted in theory but divorced from reality.

6 Purchasing a flat is the biggest financial decision for every heartlander. The immediate need for a person with very low income is not to own a flat but to put food on the table, taking care of daily needs, children's education etc. and not to commit to a 20 to 30 year mortgage with a huge uncertainty hanging over one's head.

7 Tan Chuan Jin mentioned there are people who have bought flats earning that level of income. Instead of verbally supporting Tharman's statement, which we all have already either heard or read, why did he not provide figures and profiles of those people? Khaw Boon Wan said that housing grants of up to $60000 may lower the cost of purchasing a flat and immediately assumed the buyer needed to take only a $40000 mortgage. In reality, how many people have qualified and received the $60000 grant?

8 Singaporeans are unhappy because we perceive Tharman to have used a best case scenerio which in reality seldom apply to the masses. Politicians make it sound so easy while many Singaporeans are struggling daily.

9 If Tharman's example is indeed far-fetched, he should just apologize and move on. Or provide facts and figures to support his claim. I hope we dont reach a situation where the backing of the entire Cabinet is needed.

Thank you.


Regards


Phillip Ang

PS

Any clarification should be given by the minister concerned. Every minister should be able to stand on his/her own two feet. Tharman should also illustrate how a family earning '$1200 or $1500 can purchase a medium sized flat'. (3 or 4 room HDB?) Again, please no best case scenario only and also take into consideration day to day living expenses of a family.


Illustration - family earning $1200 (married couple with 2 children)

Assuming average price of 3 rm costing $113,000 with maximum grant taken. (2012 Jan launch)

CPF for housing @ 23% - 276
HDB loan for 30 years - 453
Cash outlay (177)
Net cash available -783

Conclusion - Does Tharman expect a family to live on $783/month?


Illustration - family earning $1500 (married couple with 2 children)

Assuming average price of 3 rm costing $113,000 with maximum grant taken. (2012 Jan launch)

CPF for housing @ 23% - 345
HDB loan for 30 years - 453
Cash outlay (108)
Net cash available -1047

Conclusion - extremely tough due to high cost of living. Less necessities like phone, utilities etc. can each member live on less than $10 including food?

There must be systemic problems when a large percentage of Singaporeans require handouts from the government yearly. People have dignity.

By Tharman's definition of a medium-sized flat, it can only mean a 3 room HDB (60 to 65 square metres) as a 4 room HDB is out of the question. (see prices below)

Anonymous said...

What is the point of owning the flat if the family cannot survive on the low income with today high costs of living in Singapore ?

Let the minister live on $1000 for a month to understand the people better.

Anonymous said...

Thank you everyone for your comments as I am feeling more supported after reading these posts, and have gained courage to fight on with life. I have been surviving on below $1k for years, for our family of 4 with 2 kids and my debt have been building up.

To summarize, I have been financing my daily expenses with credit card and paying off the bills with money saved up for utilities, then paying the utilities after 3 months with credit card, on & on. My insurance pays cash bonus occasionally and this is used to offset the insurance bill and tide me through difficult times.

I have tried surviving on 2 meals of eggs fried rice daily for a month and succumbed to low blood pressure.

Sometimes I manage to get survey works and that really helps.

So far my HDB debt has past $6k since my CPF's wiped out. Application for smaller flat is either unsuccessful or unable to secure loan with my low income, or due to the arrears not settled. Rental flat's waiting time means homeless for sometime.

Now I'm waiting for HDB to re-possess my flat which they declined, resulting in escalating interest.

Anyone with authority should look into the policies(housing, education cost, transport cost, maintenance cost) to elevate poverty by solving administrative hiccups.

A lot of our problems can be solved if there are less road blocks in the government's administrative works!

Anonymous said...

Thumbs up!
Even those with higher pay than $1000 also cannot make it. Must give allowance money to parents also ley. Ageing population. So many cant work or not fit to work. Who wana support them?

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