Saturday, April 28, 2012

Plight of 60 Immoral Men Part 2...

In an earlier posting [Plight of 60 immoral men], I discussed the  case involving an underage sex worker and 60 men who would be charged in court. The names of 48 of them have since been revealed and 2 have pleaded guilty. None of these men work looking for sex with a minor as she was advertised by the pimp to be 19 years old  It looks like a case of bad luck more than anything else - had they chosen another girl, they wouldn't be in this predicament.

"The girl lacked maturity and was entitled to legal protection, .... Any "presumed willingness" on her part had no mitigating value"  - Senior District Judge See Kee Oon


Former principal Lee has been sentenced to 9 weeks jail. During his sentencing, the judge said the behavior of the girl and her "presumed willingness" does not matter. This is very interesting. In the application of a law that is intended to protect victims of exploitation, it does not matter if girl is exploited or a willing party that benefited from the transaction.Looks like defense counsel Subhas Anandan's  'a hardcore prostitute' defense might not be enough to get his clients off the hook with this judge.  It was also reported that the girl was 6 months shy of her 18th birthday - 6 months later she did not need protection....a real befuddling technicality. 18 is just an arbitrary age set by law makers in parliament but the law is applied mechanically

I looked around to check versions of similar laws in other countries. In a case involving French footballers, the police dropped the case when they were satisfied the men did not know the girl was underage[French prosecutors accept that Ribery did not know prostitute was a minor].  California allows the following defense:


"You honestly and reasonably believed that the alleged victim was over 18


If you honestly and reasonably believed that the all
eged victim was over 18 at the time you had sex, you can't be convicted under California statutory rape law.14 The types of evidence that can support your claim could include, for example:
  • statements made by the alleged victim that he/she was over the age of 18,


  • his/her attire and general appearance, and


  • where you met the alleged victim (at an adult party or venue, for example." [Link]

Allowing such a defense may lead to fairer outcomes.

The judge insisted that  the onus is on the man to check:


" Given the circumstances, Lee's suspicion ought to have been aroused and he should have asked for proof of her age, the judge said. "Had she refused to show identification, he should have walked away".....

Most sex workers will never show their identity cards or passport to a customer because they don't know who the customer is and are afraid of blackmail or harassment later on - for this reason, working girls don't use their real names. The judge expects men to walk off should the sex worker refuse to show their identity card. I wonder how practical it is given that these men are already overcome by lust and have gone all the way to meet the woman at the hotel room....the judge expects them to "walk away".

At the end of the day what these men have done is morally incorrect. However, there are many men who commit adultery and part-take in worse forms of immorality - the law does not go after them....this piece of law is not intended to go after men for their immorality but set out to protect the vulnerable. These men have their lives, families and careers crushed to protect someone who may not need protection. They had no intention to break the law, didn't know they broke the law and following the law would have required them to do something that is impractical and unnatural  - so how many men asked the 17 year old for her IC and walked out when she refused to show it?

There are some who always enjoy watching the rich and successful fall, shamed and exposed But they deserve to be treated fairly like every other Singaporean even when they have done something wrong.

119 comments:

Anonymous said...

I don't condone what the men has done here - sex with underaged.

But agree - for the same reason these men are charged with this girl (prior to turning 18) when sex took place, for the same reason the girl should be exposed (after turning 18) when the trial takes place.

There are also unclear reason of how this case was uncovered? And out of the original 80, it later dwindled down to 62 (48 + 14 pending). What happened to the other 18? On what basis were they not prosecuted?

Anonymous said...

"It looks like a case of bad luck more than anything else - had they chosen another girl, they wouldn't be in this predicament."
Lucky Tan

It's bad luck that they GOT CAUGHT, not bad luck that the girl was below 18 at that time! Get this right.

So just don't get caught lah, or don't get exposed by blogs lah.

If got exposed, must also sue to prove it is not true. If not, kena sacked.

Anonymous said...

"What happened to the other 18? On what basis were they not prosecuted?"
Anon 28/4/12 21:59

Are the authorities obliged to give you or anybody the answer?

Or can the (opposition) MPs ask these questions in Parliament?

Anonymous said...

Another interesting thing about this case.

If they did NOT pay the girl.
Just have consensual sex.
It's legal because the girl is over 16 years old.

It's illegal to have paid sex with a girl below 18 years old.
But it's legal to have consensual sex with a girl over 16 years old.

Anonymous said...

The prosecution was plain lazy and just eager to press charges. Hence, the prosecutor took the convienient way out and refused to consider that the underaged girl was a willing party. Rather unprofessional, I would say.

Anonymous said...

Singaporean men are a pitiful lot.
- Served NS to protect women and FTs.
- Become old fresh graduates and reservists that no companies want.
- Get insulted by FTs that say NS is nothing while enjoying the security that NSmen provides.
- Get screwed by unfair divorce laws.
- Now even screw prostitutes to let off some steam get into trouble with some idiotic law which treats a willing prostitute as a victim.

Anonymous said...

" Given the circumstances, Lee's suspicion ought to have been aroused and he should have asked for proof of her age, the judge said. "Had she refused to show identification, he should have walked away"

Why not legislate in such a way that prostitutes should have their identity cards (photocopy of it) clearly showing their date of birth hung around their neck if they want to do business. No identity card showing their age, no business. So the onus falls back on those ladies desperate for sales. So there won't be any "presumed willingness" on the part of the girl even though a monkey knows (let alone some learned judge) she is there for the money. We are talking about over 40+ men or maybe more, not one or two men on some reluctant girl.

Anonymous said...

this is totally absurd, how can a "first world" country doing these:

1) charge the innocent clients
2) protect the hardcore prostitute
3) claim victory of upholding the laws and morality

Come'on Singapore, don't pretend high moral when you pass such sentence by sacrificing the innocent school principal and at the same time allowing Geylang and Casino designated as Legal?!

This is totally self-contradicting. Worst of all, allowing other social escort agencies recruiting and operating and not charging them under Woman Charter for "living on earning from prostitution", just like using the same law to charge Tang Boon Thiew in this case.

Just use google type in "Singapore Social Escort", you see how many still actively operating?

Upholding morality? Puui....

Tan Kin Lian said...

I agree with several views posted her that our law has been applied unfairly and mindlessly, or to use Lucky Tan's words "mechanically".

This is an aspect of Singapore culture that we should be ashamed of.

We need to stand up and speak against unfair treatment of some people. I find the sentence meted to the principal to be excessive and unfair. I hope that it will be overturned in an appeal.

Already, his life and career has been destroyed and this outcome was really unnecessary. He should be given a chance to pay a fine, i.e. to compound the offence.

I hope to hear a statement from the Minister for Home Affairs.

Anonymous said...

"Already, his life and career has been destroyed and this outcome was really unnecessary. He should be given a chance to pay a fine, i.e. to compound the offence."

Have you heard of a past case where someone beat a red light while using a phone and caused a death. The punishment - one day jail.

Justice is sometimes all about sophistic elegance, or should I say orgy.

Anonymous said...

Be careful when you make judgement on the law and its judgement by the courts.

Don't be another Alan Shadrake.

Lucky Tan said...

anon 10:15,

Thanks for the advice. You read my post over again, it does not say the judge has done anything wrong - I was very careful not to say that :-).

The posting basically clarifies what the law expects men to do and that the law should result in treating people fairly. The rest of the conclusion readers form in their own head.

Sad Singaporean said...

This is overblown in the media. I wonder why so many men are sacrificed. Are we being distracted so we don't pay attention to other things that are happening?

Anonymous said...

"Be careful when you make judgement on the law and its judgement by the courts.

Don't be another Alan Shadrake."


Everyone forms opinions or has their on views on anything - be it the govt, their policies or court decisions.

The courts are run by mortals who have their different opinions (culminated in judgement). They are just previleged to pass judgement which result in sentences whereas laymen can just bemoan over their kopi-tiam talk & opinion.

And who is to say that public opinion cannot influence or encourage another way of thinking, if more than enough people think the same.

Anonymous said...

Anon: 2015

"Be careful when you make judgement on the law and its judgement by the courts.

Don't be another Alan Shadrake."

That is the reason why its important to stay together and stand.
I doubt Changi can hold another 6000 people.( I am sure there is plenty of space in army camps.. but it will be difficult to keep arresting everyone)

It may be the law, but laws are created by people whom we voted to represent us.

If the created law does not represent our ideals, values, what can we do?
Sit back and let things be?

A king can only exist if there is a kingdom. If the kingdom turns away, can a king remain a king?

Some may still respect the king or are beholden and there will be a split. And there will always be a different viewpoint.

The one with a louder voice
The one with the greater support will prevail.

Right now the voice is audible.

The question is do we have the support or its just merely hot air.

Anonymous said...

These people career are unlikely to be totally annihilated. For some there will be a minor setback, though embarrassing but like a well known English actor who had his dick sucked by a black whore in his car, has gone on making movies and accepted by the general community - this rests very much on the maturity of the community.

Life goes on but depending on your family situation, the "offense" may or may not heal which depends very much on the individuals involved.

That said, the issue now is the interpretation and justness of the laws and those who administer and translate justice.

Was it wise in its judgment shaming them openly?

Public stoning is still practiced today.

Anonymous said...

The farmer has already nailed this subject so hard that it must be dead 10 times over and much more to spare. I dont even know who the courts are going to salvage their image in the eyes of the general public any longer. The more this case drags on the more it will eat into the credibility of the judiciary as there are really so many inconsistencies, like why were the 18 allowed to go free?

Anonymous said...

" Given the circumstances, Lee's suspicion ought to have been aroused and he should have asked for proof of her age, the judge said. "Had she refused to show identification, he should have walked away"..

Its really you die your own business in Singapore. So next time you
1. Ate at a hawker center and get food poisoning
2. Invested in investments that are out to cheat people in the first place.
3. Caught with drugs when you are unaware that you are carrying it.
4. Employ an underage maid who claims not to be underage.

You will be told that you should have done your own checking first.

Which call girl will show their ICs? I guess the government should issue Certificate Of Eligibility (COE) to these girls to show to their clients that she is not underage. These certs do not have their real names but photos only. :-)

Anonymous said...

These are forbidden cattle meat in SIN society, not a brand new Maserati you can show off with your coveted COE.

Anonymous said...

LOL. Maybe have the girls bid for COE? LOL. Virgins under special category or Cat S(ex virgin if you have the dole) LOL

Anonymous said...

Sex is a...private matter :). Religious people best practice their holy communion of circumcision with like minded people .... within the four walls of darkness

Anonymous said...

COE can also control the "population" and help gov collect more revenue. Maybe should have ERP (Entry Requires Payment) LOL

Anonymous said...

I wonder how many of these judges are religiously motivated?

Anonymous said...

Why they sentence the punters, whereas the pimp is still our and about? Something is fishy? Is the pimp another white horse?

Anonymous said...

She is immature at 17? I think she is a savvy business woman. She could have been cheated, done it for free or wear a lower price tag.

But she knows the market well and was educated enough to protect herself until "some people" sniffed her(asshole) out.

Someone who knows how to negotiate is not exactly stupid or unaware of the consequences of her action.

Anonymous said...

The irony is that they didn't protect a minor. They protected a prostitute who is still healthy, going about her education and work like everyone else and perhads...having more sex.

Duh.

Anonymous said...

She sounds like someone who will do very well in PAP. Identity protected so should have no problem joining Young PAP in a few years time.

tanakow said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

The real intention was not to "protect minor". Its true intention is sending a message to all would be males through public stoning.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
She is immature at 17? I think she is a savvy business woman. She could have been cheated, done it for free or wear a lower price tag.

But she knows the market well and was educated enough to protect herself until "some people" sniffed her(asshole) out.

Someone who knows how to negotiate is not exactly stupid or unaware of the consequences of her action.

29/4/12 13:56

The pimps ardent talk. The patrons didn't talk. The pros were happy being pros otherwise they could have worked as cashiers or something.

So who are the kaypohs who stiuck their smelly noses into smelly assholes and exposed their SEX lives?

Anonymous said...

These men are being charged and exposed for paying for sex with a girl who is under 18 years old.

I wonder how many of them have also engaged in commercial sex with other prostitutes in Tang's stable of working girls?

But since other prostitutes may be above 18 years old. It's all legal.

Anonymous said...

Many legal violation were not reported publicly. Why this case? Why so special?

Tan Kok Tim said...

Will a signed declaration of her age be sufficient to acquit the men? If such a declaration is legally sound, the legal counsels of these men should provide a legally-drafted form for these men to bring along in future to get the sweet-young-thing hooker to sign or even thumbprint on it for peace of mind while they commit themselves to the act.

Tan Kok Tim said...

Will more people be hauled into court in 2012? A contact asked me on Facebook whether I am sure none of the 48 men in this sex scandal is christian.

I replied: “Christians? I did not have them in mind whether Christians or followers of any of the other religions.”

I believe he is the first person to bring up religion whether Christians or any other religions in respect of this case. The 48 males are now charged in court for having sex with the underage hooker.

I am not sure whether anyone has yet asked whether the girl has a religious background.

Whatever her religious belief or family background, I hope her identity is kept secret forever to protect her future.

Her hard-earned experience, rare to many young girls of her age, will be a wow-factor to her future husband when she starts a family.

Anonymous said...

9 weeks jail is already very lenient, considering he could be jailed up to 7 years.

Tan Kok Tim said...

All man-made laws have inherent flaws. What is judging and what is discerning? Should man judge one another?

Anonymous said...

dear Mr. Tan Kin Lian,
I admired your courage to speak up while majority are silent or just made moderate comments. But being a Public Figure with prominent background, I just worried you may be dragged into this sage for unnecessarily and possibly face the risks of being charged under S228 of Penal Code which read as:-

228. Whoever intentionally offers any insult or causes any interruption to any public servant, while such public servant is sitting in any stage of a judicial proceeding shall be
punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to one year, or with fine which may extend to $5,000, or with both.

Putting the comment to agree that the "law has been applied unfairly and mindlessly", to certain extent is amounting to criticising the judicial system of Singapore, and please never forget Article 35(8) of Constitution of the Republic of Singapore states that:-

"The Attorney-General shall have power, exercisable at his discretion, to institute, conduct or discontinue any proceedings for any offence."

So, don't comment or criticise the the decision of AG, they are vested by the Constitution for such power.

Having said that, notwithstanding the foregoing Article 35(8), it is equally important to know that Article 12 was set in ahead of the Article 35 in sequence, and Artile 12(1) states that:- "All persons are equal before the law and entitled to the equal protection of the law." Presumably, the discretion power of AG shall not over or in conflict with Article 12 per se, to make it sensible and constitutional.

Veritas said...

Careful what you ask for dear commenter and bloggers. The other alternative would see Singapore turning into a land of Enjo Kosai, as Taiwan Korea Japan, our cultural brothers has.

What I agree is the hard core whore should not be protected. Her name should be exposed. The law is too biased against man.

But if we lower the age of consensual sexual transaction, soon our daughters would be screwed. Girls nowadays are not able resist materialism.

Whether we want to let our teenage girl get screwed or we have a little violation of of man's right by criminalizing prostitution under 18, I have no answer.

Tan Kok Tim said...

9 long weeks. Jailed for the indiscretion in a moment of physical weakness that the mind and body could not differentiate between good and evil. Nine weeks in there will be like a lifetime, like eternal. A painful experience that is unforgettable for life to many. Some have this stigma deep in their soul forever, irremovable. I hope those who ended in jail will know the secret of putting it down and not carrying it emotionally for life. I hope many people will not end up on the wrong side of the law and be hauled into court this year, 2012, as it is not going to be an easy year for many. Let us not be caught off guard even momentarily. There are rules to play chess. So too there are rules for not taking things for granted.

Anonymous said...

"Her hard-earned experience, rare to many young girls of her age, will be a wow-factor to her future husband when she starts a family."

Wow factor to her future husband? I detected a judgmental tone there. In any case, it is her life and her rights. Hence, it is her business and for those who matter to her to judge, and no one else.

Those who inclined to judge others, when it is not their business to do so, are mostly religious or religiously motivated.

We should all mind our own business so long as we do not violate humanistic laws

ps: by saying that, I am no supporter of TKL

Anonymous said...

"The Attorney-General shall have power, exercisable at his discretion, to institute, conduct or discontinue any proceedings for any offence."

So, don't comment or criticise the the decision of AG, they are vested by the Constitution for such power.

Having said that, notwithstanding the foregoing Article 35(8), it is equally important to know that Article 12 was set in ahead of the Article 35 in sequence, and Artile 12(1) states that:- "All persons are equal before the law and entitled to the equal protection of the law." Presumably, the discretion power of AG shall not over or in conflict with Article 12 per se, to make it sensible and constitutional.$$$$$$$

Err, well learned citizen, care to explain how a powerful person keep his privileged sovereignty from tainting human rights or fair justice?

Anonymous said...

"There are rules to play chess. So too there are rules for not taking things for granted."

You mean there are rules to play "chests"?

Anonymous said...

the news from gutteruncensored said that the BF just get recently get to know the GF was the super star of recent scandal around 19 April 2012, and he claimed of full denial of this fact.

Worst to that is the BF claimed that the woman's family wanted to file police report to clear her name.

Obviously, the woman keep all these silence to both the BF and family members.

I don't see really that the woman is regret or repentant to what she and pimp did, clearly, she is rather as "innocent" until and up to now still hiding such serious matter from the closer inner circle peoples.

the punishment of the men is harsh, using press to publicly condemn the men, the men and his family is broken and the damage is irreparable, whether the judge sentence to fine or jail, it's already doesn't matter - as the damage is so harmful and no turning point for men and his family members ...

it's sad to learn that the current "law enforcing unit" is operating machanically than equitably, forget about the UK Laws and the doctrine of equity - In Singapore, all these are already swept beneath the carpet and long becomes history.

Anonymous said...

It is naive to think that the laws can protect or stop minors - in this case - from commercial sex. Commercial sex, like most respectable profession has its risks. While some in sex trade have their lives ruined, many have also gone on to live "fulfilling lives".

Nevertheless, making it illegal for under 18 to have commercial is still not wrong. But scandalizing the offenders is a different issue or may interest the hypocrites more.

Veritas said...

///
But scandalizing the offenders is a different issue or may interest the hypocrites more.
///

There is no way to prevent the names of those who stand trial from public awareness, unless in the realm of rape or in cases which involve ultra sensitive national security.

A trial is for the public to witness, thats what it means. The alternative to keep the names of those whorer annoymous would open a even bigger can of worms.

Imagine if so and so murders, rape or embezzle and no one in public can know their name when their goes for trial. One of these days, such crooks may stand for public office elections and no one will know what shit he has done in the past.

Wake up my dear bloggers and commenters. This is among the few issues I am more in favor of PAP's handling.

To annon those idiot would be a greater hypocrisy, that would do even a larger long term harm. When a man did it, he got to be a man to face it.

Veritas said...

To those sympathizer of those whorer, answer these question

1) Have you fuck a whore?
2) Have you fuck any woman who is not your wife.

When you know you did something wrong, and when those shit go into the sun, please be prepare to repent. You screw someone else daughter. The girls have father and mother who took pains to bring her up.

Can you imagine what if you bring up your daughters putting so many effort, then I come, pump a few sperm into her ass?

Lucky Tan said...

Veritas,
I don't think the law can help naintain morality in china the laws are harsh but look at what is happening to their society. I view morality as a perpetual struggle for individuals and a society...it is not always a downhill struggle but full of ups and downs...a function of prosperity, religion, culture and a value system

Anonymous said...

Not knowing the law is no excuse for breaking the law.
The 48 of them cannot use the fact of not knowing that having commercial sex with under 18 year old girls as good reason for them to be forgiven in breaking the law.

If what Lucky said is valid, then anyone who breaks the law can claims that he/she does not know anything about the law, therefore he/she should not be convicted under the law. This is dangerous. This means that no one will ever be convicted for breaking any law.

The law has to be fair and impartial to everyone, given that there were peoples who were sentenced in the past for similar offence.

Just because there are some elites among these 48 of them, special treatment to forgive them and treat this as no big deal offence is not going to do any justice to all Singaporean.

Anonymous said...

If these 48 of them are just ordinary peoples, there is no arguments and controversial about the case. This is testified by the fact there were no arguments and controversial about previous cases when peoples who had committed the same offence and convicted under the same law in the past.

Because there are elites among these 48 of them, including a former primary school principal, a former secondary school teacher, former high ranking financial executives and wealthy individuals, peoples get excited and interested about the fairness of the case.

Does this mean that ordinary peoples should get harsher punishment than the elites and the riches for committing the same offence?

Does this mean that ordinary peoples have no careers, no life when compared to the riches and the elites?

This shows that the society has to grow up to treat everyone, whether you are ordinary, poor, rich or elite, fairly with the same respect and same expectation.

Anonymous said...

Where the law is applied, in this case, it is blatantly casted in stone. Let's be reminded that we are dealing with an ALMOST 18 years OLD girl here who is EDUCATED( enough) to protect herself. If she chooses to be promiscuous(and might as well get paid too), at most, you can REASON with her about the consequences of her action but the decision rests on her

But often than not, there is a particular group of people who can't wait to throw "the bible" at her and those who share her promiscuity.

It is time we RESPECT THEIR RIGHTS and ..REASON with them like adults. It works most of the time anyway and even if not, they should be left to live out the consequences of their decisions because the world is big enough for all kinds of beasts to habitate.

As for religiously inclined veritas, go and put a chastity belt on your daughters if they are THAT STUPIG.

Anonymous said...

Veritas said...
///
But scandalizing the offenders is a different issue or may interest the hypocrites more.
///

There is no way to prevent the names of those who stand trial from public awareness, unless in the realm of rape or in cases which involve ultra sensitive national security.

A trial is for the public to witness, thats what it means. The alternative to keep the names of those whorer annoymous would open a even bigger can of worms.

Imagine if so and so murders, rape or embezzle and no one in public can know their name when their goes for trial. One of these days, such crooks may stand for public office elections and no one will know what shit he has done in the past.

Wake up my dear bloggers and commenters. This is among the few issues I am more in favor of PAP's handling.

To annon those idiot would be a greater hypocrisy, that would do even a larger long term harm. When a man did it, he got to be a man to face it. End quote.

In pertaining to commercial sex, which is the oldest trade in the world and still thriving, why the public humiliation to such detail but not detailed enough to expose the almost ripe girl or very ripe girl?

If you want to educate the public through the press, you can leave out such details because non hypocrites are not interested to know.

These "law breakers" will have to face their love ones and employers , which I think is enough punishment.

Anything more than that is like attending church service under a pastor or priest who also moonlight as private tutor to children.

Anonymous said...

This Veritas....talk so much but head sure twisted...

She...obviously is a she what....wrote ...When you know you did something wrong, and when those shit go into the sun, please be prepare to repent. You screw someone else daughter. The girls have father and mother who took pains to bring her up.

HAHAHA...hey...the father and mother of the girl ought to apologize to the men for raising a daughter so horny until she had to lie for sex and money...HAHAHA and Veritas can check into IMH...hopefully, they can save her koya mind or help her to REPENT instead HAHAHA

Anonymous said...

""Veritas said... 29/4/12 16:03
Imagine if so and so murders, rape or embezzle and no one in public can know their name when their goes for trial. One of these days, such crooks may stand for public office elections and no one will know what shit he has done in the past.""

Then, how about the possibility of the lady for paid sex running for public office in the future.

You are mixing murder & rape and paid sex (an exchange) together.

Shouldn't the lady be shamed (by revealing her name) also so more angles are covered and the correct message / signal is communicated loud and clear to both parties (males & females).

Anonymous said...

She has a wild imagination...must be menopause ...for heaven sake...these people are not murderers or rapists.

they are just having consensual sex and kaypoh chees are not happy that they get to screw around while they are restricted to one partner or have to play with themselves at work

Anonymous said...

"If what Lucky said is valid, then anyone who breaks the law can claims that he/she does not know anything about the law, therefore he/she should not be convicted under the law. This is dangerous. This means that no one will ever be convicted for breaking any law."

That is for the judges to decide by weighing all the factors and even mitigating ones. Else, why do you need appeals. Even judges think & sometimes give ruling differently by explaining in their own long only-they-understand technical, jargonistic & legalistic terms.

Anonymous said...

joke is...you don't need to be a learned scholar to judge rightly.

sometimes, a primary school educated thinks better than a Harvard grad.

at least the former has...shame

Anonymous said...

QUESTIONS:

1.Since prostitution is legal, does a prostitute who is a Singaporean require a licence?
We know that the foreign talent in the Geylang brothels are all issued with government licence to practise?

2.Will IRAS please confirm if Singaporean prostitutes ever pay taxes?
Are prostitutes subject to income tax?

3.Is prostitution legally confined only to the brothels in Geylang?
Or are they legal anyhwere and everywhere in Singapore?

4.Is there such a thing as a licensed prostitute (subject to a code of practice and health checks) versus an unlicensed (but still legal) prostitute?

Tan Kok Tim said...

Better still, conscience.

Anonymous said...

Lawyers and judges, many, are very horny people. Wonder how they get their release.

Anonymous said...

By screwing each other with a hammer or making involuntary movements under their black brief case.

Anonymous said...

MORE QUESTIONS:

1.Are all these men newbies?
First time customers?
Or repeat customers of the alleged pimp, Mr Tang.

2.The girl advertised/offered as proving sexual services of a woman of above 18 years old.
Since the men did not get what was advertised.
She is below 18 years old.
Can the men file a civil suit to get their money back?
Maybe CASE can help out here?
The new "lemon law" may be applicable here?

J. said...

In almost all countries, a defendant's ignorance of the girl's age does not make them innocent of crime. While Mr. Tan makes a point with the possibility of a defense of no knowledge in various countries, they are by no means part of the law (even in California, the example that he linked). Discretion is up to the judge. Like in this case - 21-year-old gets charged despite mounting a defense of no knowledge of age. Granted, there has been successful cases through the use of that defense (as shown by Mr. Tan), but it is an exception, not a norm.

The law was made to deter people from both offering and purchasing sex with minors, and as pointed out, it's impossible to discern their age if "buying". Won't that mean all customers are innocent of crime? Their crime, of course, being that of creating a market for underage prostitutes, whether they were looking for it or not. They were looking for sex with young people, surely they are aware of the possibility of the person being underage. The solution is simple - do not specify young girls in your requirement.

Furthermore, if following the law "required them to do something that is impractical and unnatural", it only illustrates how lax the industry is, not how they couldn't have checked. If they were careless, they are naturally complicit - it implies that they do not care much about breaking the law. Also, being overcome with lust is hardly a reason to not walk away. If that were true, half of rapists would be innocent.

A girl's willingness is not taken into consideration usually because it is assumed that as minors, she is not fully aware of her own decisions. Thus the "lack of maturity" and entitlement to legal protection, no matter whether she was indeed aware of it or not. Personally, it's a little shaky, especially at 17+, but since it's been set at that number, she falls under that law. Can't be argued. To quote Senior Home Affairs minister Ho Peng Kee on the floor of Parliament when the bill was introduced. “Young persons, because they are immature and vulnerable and can be exploited therefore, should be protected from providing sexual services.”

I do believe that the men have been too harshly judged - by the press and public, that is. It's pretty much a feeding frenzy, if only because they are rich and famous, and the level of exposure is uncalled for. While not illegal, listing their names may be too much considering the crime, and as Mr. Tan stated, relatively minor act morality-wise. However, when it comes to the law, there is no doubt as to their guilt. This law is to deter the hiring of, and the soliciting of underage prostitutes. If they (or anyone else) could be judged innocent using the defense of no knowledge and the girl's willingness, it would be a pretty ineffective law.

Veritas said...

To choose between protecting the reputation of these dirty man and revelation of truth, I will prefer the later.

People in SG is become more and more shameless. In USA, all politician being exposed of fucking around go out and apologize. Today, in SG, people are sympathetic to these dirty man worse than shit.

Most did not apologize but they cry foul and whine their reputation go down the shit bowl. Even fuckers or whorers like Al Gore, Edwards has better moral than these SG scumbag. When their scandal goes public, they repent the damage done.

Worse, crackpots on the web keep giving support to these dirty whorers. None ask demand their public apology.

Anonymous said...

"Also, being overcome with lust is hardly a reason to not walk away. If that were true, half of rapists would be innocent."

Paid sex is different from rape. Prostitutes don't scream of being raped after getting paid for sex unless it is trickery or set-up.

"A girl's willingness is not taken into consideration usually because it is assumed that as minors, she is not fully aware of her own decisions."

How about adults being misled in some timeshare deals. Don't assume this & that, even for minors or adults, all assumptions must be proven if you are going to punish someone severely for the alleged crime or offence.

Veritas said...

The reason why Vatican keep on having fucker priest is because the catholic church held bent on protecting the anonymity of these fuckers.

Today, principals, school HOD are fucking whore. Of course the public has the right to know their name. You want your daughters to be taught by these ass chaser? I think some of the commenter probably like this idea.

You think protecting the reputation of these idiots is more important than protecting our daughters? I do know what some people thing. Probably they think that these clowns in MOE can double up not only in teaching, but also can give their daughter the biggest ecstasy that blow up their mind.

If we extend anonimity to these idiot, it would definitely be abused in the future, and especially extended to elites who commit crime.

I support exposing the under age whore's name. And also the public right to know is bigger than the reputation of these dirty man.

There are too many MOE teachers fucking students. I am glad this time, the court get rid of potential pedophilles. (They buy sex from the young whore because she advertise she is young, that shows the stealth pedophille of these jokers)

Anonymous said...

If they were "dirty" ... You,your mother father,grandparents and siblings are also dirty or filthy.

Anyway...who in this age use words like repent, dirty except religious people?

Nah, they are fucking normal.

Anonymous said...

To the an earlier poster who asked if there was christians among the charged. The answer is yes.

If some of you have been following the news (especially in the msm, you will notice that there were originally report that the 3rd batch of list comprised of some really big whale, senior lawyers and elites. And because some of these were powerful people, and the prosecutors had anticipated the resistance, thus there were some serious preparation work, plus perhaps the reason why this girl needed to be protected.

But suddenly, ST now reports that the last batch is only 14 (not 32) and they are only ordinary people. Why the change of story? Were there some serious back-end deals or negotiation by those 'high and might' with means to get out? Like some people mentioned, there seems to be some shady business here with some facts/details here.

Lastly, watch this clip. It's stated the girl is protected not because she is underaged (before and now) but due to the gag order...so once again, what is the reasons for her protection? Is her safety being threatened here by some reported 'big whales'?

http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20120429-342792.html

http://www.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20120429-342792.html

Anonymous said...

The law was obviously drafted to prevent sex with young children (aka pedophilia) but our poodles and pubic prosecutors choose to focus on a case where the 'victim' (who happen to be a hard core prostitute) was only a few months shy of the legal limit.

Clearly a diversion tactic to take Singaporeans' minds off fundamentally pressing issues plaguing the country, like FT policy, failing public transport etc.

Anonymous said...

"Worse, crackpots on the web keep giving support to these dirty whorers. None ask demand their public apology."

Public apology ? To who ? The girl ? The The parents of the girl ? The Pimp ? Or their respective wives and children ?

Does the girl need to apologise ? Does the pimp need to apologise also ?

Just treat it as how good or strong you can build up a case / argument for the men or the law. Don't treat it as a support for anyone by crackpots.

Veritas said...

What I think is wrong about this case is,
1) The name of the whore should be revealed. How about gender equality, why no AWARE idiot press for revealing the name of the whore?

2) The onus of ensuring that the whore fulfil the age requirement of paid sex, should be on the whore and/or pimp, instead of the client. The whore has wilfully enter into sexual transaction despite she knows that she herself is under age. That makes her even more odious than her clients who are unaware.

The case is on the whole, bias against man. The shit law attacks the man too much for me to swallow.

Anonymous said...

Yes, swallow cum easier

Anonymous said...

Has it ever crossed your mind that

1) these same 48 men might also have had sex with other girls (above legal age) that was provided /not provided by the same Pimp, and not reported.

2) Only the date/time with this particular girl, committed by them is revealed..but not others.

3) You may see them all as 'innocent' or 'unlucky' to be caught, just remember this -- we don't know what we don't know.

Anonymous said...

Seriously, who cares if they want to fuck up their lives. But unjust laws is no no

Veritas said...

To sum up my stand,
1) no unjust law.

2) the public access to details of a trial is supreme important.

3) No matter a law is just or unjust, that will destroy someone's reputation, so long there is a trial, the public must have full access to the process of trial. The public access to judicial process is more important than all other things.

Anonymous said...

I wonder some of these institutional establishment would take issue with their employees for engaging in the services of legal prostitution?

If not, why kick up such a fuss over these high profile men with an almost legal hardcore prostitute?

However, if commercial sex for these class of men is frown upon by these institutional establishment or public, then the technical violation becomes a window of opportunity to impactfully express their disapproval.

Anonymous said...

'Wuan e yin weishou' meaning the greatest of all evil is sexual indulgence.

Anonymous said...

in other words...their true intention is to skin these high profile sex starved men in the public arena in the pretext of " the protection of minor" ... but really not much of a minor considering her maturity and the fact that was on the verge of graduation

Anonymous said...

No, the greatest evil is not sexual indulgence. The greatest evil is indulging in people's sex lives like some peeping toms or janes

Anonymous said...

Who is watching them? Who exposed them?

Anonymous said...

Usually, in law, there is grace or allowance. Take speed limit for instance. If the limit is 80KM, would you get a ticket for driving at 85KM? Surely not. The allowance I understand to be iabout 20KM?

So limit is 80KM but unless you exceed 100KM, they usually would not bother otherwise life will be very difficult for many motorists.

Anonymous said...

Unless of course you want to use the laws to target some people :)

Anonymous said...

You look like a prostitute in that red outfit

Anonymous said...

Sexual escapade such as commercial sex is usually hush hush. How were these men caught? Anyone knows?

Anonymous said...

Let those who check a hooker's age before acquiring her service cast the first stone. dt

Anonymous said...

And who uses words like...cast the first stone if not a religious idiot?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Let those who check a hooker's age before acquiring her service cast the first stone. dt

30/4/12 00:18

You are talking about the judge right the judge right? or the...police?

Anonymous said...

I remember a business tycoon faked a kidney donation a story, which he actually paid for. He was charged and sentenced to jail to; but for only one day.

This one day sentence is actually less than 8 hours. In actual fact, his case was concluded in court at about 11 a.m. He sat in the Court lock up until 5 pm; which is only 6 hours and left the court to his chauffeur driven car and returned to his plush bungalow...

Ng Eng Hou said...

The whole thing doesn't make sense to me at all! Just feel that the view about women being the weaker sex and needs special protection is a little bit outdated!

It's a real sad sex story!

Anonymous said...

We have too many religious idiots in power. They have so much power, we can't even hold the corrupt church a countable for spouting nonsense. Going by one was raided years ago and what came out of it?

Corruption of justice is here to stay.

Anonymous said...

The church is not an indivual. When an individual spouts nonsense, we an afford to ignore. In the case of the church, she is an influential institution. If her nonsense continues to be pervasive, we will head towards world war 3!

Anonymous said...

There is an incredible number of idiots working for the press and those they favor for publication. Constantly, the solution is to feed the money system. Bah. No wonder men are so stressed up that they turn to cattle meat for release.

Anonymous said...

It will be interesting to know how many months will that Shaw grandson be entitled to ?

Maybe our Govt trying to prove a point at the expense of natural justice ?

Anonymous said...

QUESTION:
---------
Did the men (including the elites) go in with their "eyes opened"?

Did they not learn anything from the minibond debacle and LKY's counsel?

Anonymous said...

This is one of the danger of living in Singapore. U never know when u get punish for going about your daily lives. Lee Kuan Yew has altered the laws and regulations to suit his and his family selfish needs and protections. Consequently many of the laws in Singapore have unintented consequences. Thus law abiding good Singaporeans unknowingly become collateral casualities.

Anonymous said...

They deserve to be heavily punished. So what if this girl is above 20. The principal should be executed immediately. Only God knows what other horrible things he has done hiding behind his principal job.

Anonymous said...

If he is not being caught, he may be doing your wife, daughter or mother. They should be wiped off from the surface of the earth immedidately. Sending them to the gas chamber is the best punishment.

Anonymous said...

Gas chamber is not a bad idea, But has to be tested on MIW and their cronies first, like maybe over a 10 yr period :)

ghost of hitler

Gintai_昇泰 said...

It's a sad case. I feel it's a miscarriage of justice. The men appear to be victims that anything else. I have blogged on this. Unfortunately those men not living under the US system if justice. Here it's all based strictly by the book. No compassion at all. No flexibility in applying the law. How sad.

Anonymous said...

In Japan, prostitution is illegal. However, you have fuzoku magazines in almost all the convenience stores here that carry hardcore pornography. Men would come in to buy a can of coffee or onigiri and a magazine. from which they'll call the ads for health delivery services. This is home-delivery prostitutes. It is accepted here.

My neighbour engages them and the lady is polite too.

Singapore has a long way to go. Perhaps a few more centuries.

Anonymous said...

http://gutteruncensorednewsd.blogspot.com/2012/04/boyfriend-of-steph-thia-hwee-koon.html?zx=6474eb45c64c7c00

Anonymous said...

I say the girl is not innocent. That bitch had sex with over 100 men lah. So she's a whore. You call that victimised?

If she's victimised, she should return all her earnings back to the court. No?

That whore sells her chee by and then 50 odd guys have to go to jail. I want to know. What is so special about her her chee by? Is her chee by make from gold that she needs to be protected at age 17.5?

She, herself, knows her cheeby must be made from diamond, so she sells it through an agent. So she won't get caught and she can charged more and it's all in private.

She should return all the money she ripped off the men. Otherwise, Singapore is a country that is biased against men. This is fucking misandry in action.

Anonymous said...

In Israel, women serve NS!

In fucking SIngapore, women are the fucking weaker sex who wants to work, pay for nothing, and the chee by also cannot make baby; so much so we have to import babies from overseas.

Fucking singapore's policies and...

Anonymous said...

"this is totally absurd, how can a "first world" country doing these:

1) charge the innocent clients
2) protect the hardcore prostitute
3) claim victory of upholding the laws and morality

Come'on Singapore, don't pretend high moral when you pass such sentence by sacrificing the innocent school principal and at the same time allowing Geylang and Casino designated as Legal?!

This is totally self-contradicting. Worst of all, allowing other social escort agencies recruiting and operating and not charging them under Woman Charter for "living on earning from prostitution", just like using the same law to charge Tang Boon Thiew in this case.

Just use google type in "Singapore Social Escort", you see how many still actively operating?

Upholding morality? Puui...."

My exact sentiments. The greater hypocrisy is that the education minister who is never a teacher in his career is spouting MOE to teach values education to our children. ANd his idea is to use money to teach values. We hope that there are some clear-minded folks up at MOE who doesn't listen to this fucker. Otherwise, moral decays is the result of his stupidity.

Our government has already lost moral credibility. We have to put them in check before we become corrupt.

How to say much also problem? Because all the guns and machinery in this country are in their hands and we got no choice but to follow what they say.

Singapore is a sad story today.

Anonymous said...

"this is totally absurd, how can a "first world" country doing these:

1) charge the innocent clients
2) protect the hardcore prostitute
3) claim victory of upholding the laws and morality

Come'on Singapore, don't pretend high moral when you pass such sentence by sacrificing the innocent school principal and at the same time allowing Geylang and Casino designated as Legal?!

This is totally self-contradicting. Worst of all, allowing other social escort agencies recruiting and operating and not charging them under Woman Charter for "living on earning from prostitution", just like using the same law to charge Tang Boon Thiew in this case.

Just use google type in "Singapore Social Escort", you see how many still actively operating?

Upholding morality? Puui...."

My exact sentiments. The greater hypocrisy is that the education minister who is never a teacher in his career is spouting MOE to teach values education to our children. ANd his idea is to use money to teach values. We hope that there are some clear-minded folks up at MOE who doesn't listen to this fucker. Otherwise, moral decays is the result of his stupidity.

Our government has already lost moral credibility. We have to put them in check before we become corrupt.

How to say much also problem? Because all the guns and machinery in this country are in their hands and we got no choice but to follow what they say.

Singapore is a sad story today.

Veritas said...

Whether is bias against man or whether the woman is the culprit, when the trial goes on, public must have full access. Who knows that Principal and HOD, all high flyers of MOE have already screwed their students.

At least we sniff out these idiots before more damage is done.

Anonymous said...

"Thanks for the advice. You read my post over again, it does not say the judge has done anything wrong - I was very careful not to say that :-). "

Why is it wrong to say that any judge if they have indeed made a mistake is wrong?

Do you mean judges dont' make mistakes? They're perfect? Do you mean all judges are infallible?

What kind of morality or justice is that?

Seems like you have some thought control demons still lingering in your mind, unlucky tan.

Anonymous said...

So help us understand, how a child can go from 17 years and 6 months of innoncence to this:

http://vivaescortsg.com/vivaescort/VFM/viva/jolene.html

No wonder we singapore chinese men dont' want to get married...the divorce laws is already one-sided...and the government already punishes singapore with NS and reservists...hate to be born here...an island where you can buy a BMW in japan for the price of the cheapest car here.

Anonymous said...

So help us understand, how a child can go from 17 years and 6 months of innoncence to this:

http://vivaescortsg.com/vivaescort/VFM/viva/jolene.html

No wonder we singapore chinese men dont' want to get married...the divorce laws is already one-sided...and the government already punishes singapore with NS and reservists...hate to be born here...an island where you can buy a BMW in japan for the price of the cheapest car here.

Anonymous said...

Thought I have read about judges committing sexual offences in courts as well as in their dealings with staff and in their social live as well.

No?

It is only fair to expect judges and those well-versed with the Laws to have their sexual adventures on the sly. And it is only natural for the judges/law professionals to have as much sexual romping as any other human or animal lah.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
I say the girl is not innocent. That bitch had sex with over 100 men lah. So she's a whore. You call that victimised?

If she's victimised, she should return all her earnings back to the court. No?

That whore sells her chee by and then 50 odd guys have to go to jail. I want to know. What is so special about her her chee by? Is her chee by make from gold that she needs to be protected at age 17.5?

She, herself, knows her cheeby must be made from diamond, so she sells it through an agent. So she won't get caught and she can charged more and it's all in private.

She should return all the money she ripped off the men. Otherwise, Singapore is a country that is biased against men. This is fucking misandry in action.

1/5/12 11:40

Please respect Chow Chee By because that's where you came from.

You see, our judges have shown plenty of respect for CCB and they know what they are doing that's why we pay them sky high salary to keep CCB happy.

Why do you suppose the city icon is a big furry Pussy cat huh?

You are diving into the thick,depth and throes of excitement

Respect respect to CCB man

Anonymous said...

Whilst almost all the sheeples yak yak yak about high level fornication by high ranking civil servants & men indulging in accidental but criminal underage sex blah blah blah ........ Thsy are raising Your Electrical Tariffs & Jacking up your inflation futher....... Ha ha ha

So easy to distract. They say jump, we say how high ?

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Anonymous said...

So now its revealed the girl had a fake ID...

I wonder if the DPP just found out recently, or knew this all the while and still proceeded to charge so many people, "in the public interest."

Not to mention burying this insignificant fact.

http://www.singaporelawwatch.com/slw/index.php/headlines/17014-underage-prostitute-had-false-ic-stating-age-as-19?utm_source=web%20subscription&utm_medium=web

Anonymous said...

Wtf if the guys get charge. Why the hardcore prostitute still can get away with using fake ic?

What is happen to our country? Something is wrong here? AGC is hiding the fake ic issue.

This is not JUSTICE.

Our country is sick. It run by so call elite and screw up many issues.

Anonymous said...

Hi Lucky,

May I have your comment on the prostitute using fake ic?

I seriously think this is a wayang show from garhment. From day one AGC should know she use fake ic. They try to cover up and proceed charging the poor men.

In this case the men dont deserve get charge at all!

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