Friday, May 25, 2012

Plight of a HDB flat buyer.......

UPDATE: Admund has provided his mobile number:91557441 and email: admund_tan@yahoo.com
If you have questions on specific details of the case, you might want to check directly with him.

HDB does impose penalties in cases where the buyer is unable to secure a HDB loan of sufficient size and has to cancel his purchase because he can't raise the cash[If it's not income loss, what is it, HDB?] . Some commenters suggest that Admund has tried to buy a flat that is too expensive and should have been more conservative. This is actually irrelevant because the main point is whether HDB should penalize someone for a problem caused by HDB denying them access to sufficient loans. The purpose of imposing penalties for cancellation is to discourage people who are not serious about getting a flat and have no intention of closing the sale from making applications. In this case, the buyer has every intention of going through with the sale but was stopped by HDB denying him access to a 90% loan.



Yes, even people earning $1000 can own a flat....sure Minister Tharman sure!

Admund's plight just highlights how things can go very wrong for someone buying a HDB flat......the most expensive public housing in the world.

When you purchase a HDB flat and wish to get an HDB loan, you will need to first obtain an HDB Loan Eligibility(HLE) letter and the amount of housing loan that can be granted will depend on the buyers' age and monthly income. This letter is valid for 3 months from the date of issue[Link].

When buying an uncompleted flat directly from HDB, your loan eligibility will be subjected to reassessment at the time of flat completion before the loan is disbursed. For the case of BTO which take years to build, a buyer is reassessed when he collects his keys. If this reassessment fails and the buyer has no means to fork out the cash, the buyer will forfeit his option fees and 5% of the price of the flat.

In Admund's case, the HDB assessed him to be well paid so he was not entitled to any HDB grants. He paid $40+K for his down payment but was not able to secure a large enough loan from HDB to procure his HDB flat. Because HDB did not grant him a large enough loan (90% of the price of a flat) and he did not have sufficient cash to make up the difference, HDB made him pay a penalty of $28K and he lost his flat after trying to get one for 7 years.

This is quite amazing isn't it? Imagine in the case of BTO, the flats take years to build and the person gets sick or sees his income falling sharply due to job loss (to FTs?!) , the HDB takes half his down payment as a penalty after rejecting his HLE if he has no cash to pay for his home. 

How can HDB penalize someone for something unintentional and out of his own control? The main reason for failing the HLE (re)assessment is the loss of employment, illness or personal misfortune. Imagine the pain caused by HDB penalizing these people - it is unjust and unfair. 

73 comments:

Anonymous said...

omg, almost S$30k gone just like that. HDB is really heartless - what affordable housing for its citizens - HDB is just a money making machine like everything else in Singapore.

Singaporean said...

I'm speechless! I can't believe this is how the govt has been treating her citizens. How does the minister sleep at night?

Anonymous said...

This is shameful for PUBLIC HOUSING provider...makes me SICK!

auntielucia said...

Is the video true, Singaporemind? Have you double-checked?

Anonymous said...

If indeed factual, this incident is deplorable and be made a case of fraudulent practice by HDB

Anonymous said...

Simply, PAP robbed it without any compelling reason. They are the people hard earned money, how can HDB aka partisan PAP machine be so heartless to ordinary people. We need more opposition in parlaiment. The more the merrier and hopefuly surpassed 30 numbers at least.

Anonymous said...

The flat Admund booked cost S$379k ($249k + $130k) and PAP call it "Subsidized"! This amount can buy a landed house in most other countries, and you actually OWN it.

Nobody owns a HDB flat, you only agree to lease it for 99 years. HDB can kick you out, enbloc your flat to sell the land to property developers to build expensive condos and "sell" you another HDB flat in some crappier location.

Anonymous said...

Are people like Admund a minority of the minority? Say a minority of the minority 40% who did not vote PAP last GE?

If so, and even if his case is true, then PAP can still win 93% seats with 60% votes.

Never mind even if PAP lose deposit in Hougang BE.

Anonymous said...

Flats for PRs,
Fines for citizens.

60% still support PAP.

And teary, sorry Lee Hsien Loong still got 70% votes from AMK residents.

All I can say, we deserve the goverment we voted for.

Lye Khuen Way said...

The joke that is Singapore get "better" every other day!
Amazing how we degenerate. I mean to say, how our Government & its various Agencies could think of such schemes. Almost daylight robbery, if you ask me.

Anonymous said...

After watching this video, I have this to say:

FARQ the PAP government!

Anonymous said...

Amazing daylight robbery. How can justice be served. Really hope that the govt can look into this and set things right.

I am glad there is the Internet to provide exposure of such ridiculous practises.

Anonymous said...

Is there something wrong with HDB policies or the authorities?

All along, I understand that HDB has a moral duty to let Singaporeans afford public housing.

When did HDB implement such bad policies against people?

Anonymous said...

Moral duty?

There is lots of immoral acts and there is no such thing as duty!

HDB will counter that 7 years lasped for him to do something about it.

MYCS will counter that his siblings should help first.

In other words, we need to be near dead to be considered for any assistance... even then,,, sign forms in triplicate, wait for another interview...

Go to E2i for ...

yellow said...

did Admund try to purchase a 4-room flat? $379k sounds too much for a 3-room flat... why didn't he try for something more affordable when he knew that his HLE was only $330,000? I don't know, but is it possible to "downsize" the flat bought? ie. change to a 3-room flat instead?

i'm just thinking out loud on possible ways to help Admund own a flat.

Anonymous said...

This is just one of the many many cases in which the state unnecessarily punishes the citizens. This is another of the legacy which Lee Kuan Yew is leaving behind.

Anonymous said...

Could be the other way. Income eligible on application but exceeded after 4/5 years wait due to increment and promotion. Then qualified or disqualified? Told disqualified. Income exceed ceiling.
Please confirm.
If true, this is another outrageous policy change of the last regime that hurt many buyers.

Anonymous said...

I'm anti-PAP and against many of the PAPies policies. Including jacking up HDB prices to ridiculous prices by pegging to private market forces and thus creating a vicious cycle of high inflation and high costs of living. Don't forget that high HDB prices filter through to high commercial property prices and rentals for companies/shops, resulting in passing additional costs to us average people.

HOWEVER, for this story, it is basically a case of someone biting off more than he can chew.

1. In the first place, when you book a BTO flat, you choose the exact specific flat unit --- you know the type of flat and the exact price tag. Remember, BTO concept is modelled similar to private property condo launches. So he knows that the price is $420K, not including the stamp duty of $7++K and conveyancing of $284.

2. YES!!! The price of the BTO flat is $420K --- pls learn how to calculate from the figures in the video. This means that he selected a 5-rm fat. For someone living in rental 1-rm flat his whole life to jumping to buy 5-rm. Nothing wrong with that AS LONG as he knows he has the money stashed away. He may have based his decision on some rosy projection of his business deals or future promotions etc. This is the WRONG WAY. You buy based on what you can AFFORD TODAY.

3. From DAY ONE, the original HLE was $333K. This means he KNOWS he has to COUGH UP ALMOST $50K CASH, after minusing off the $40,200 downpayment from CPF and cash. The stamp duty and conveyancing fee are not counted.

4. OK, so HDB (actually PAP-in-disguise) tekan him and mentally torture him, want to drastically reduce the HLE. But still finally they give him $330K. Which is ONLY $3K less than original HLE.

5. From DAY ONE, he knows he has to quickly save up the $50K or have some avenue e.g. richer relatives or personal line of bank credit, to get this $50K cash.

6. BUT NOOOO. Even after getting almost the same amount of HLE in the FIRST PLACE, he now cannot cough up the $50K --- which he KNOWS from DAY ONE he has to pay. Come on, even though I know that $420K is cut-throat and is almost 4X what the 5-rm flat actually cost to build, but to say you now cannot pay and expect HDB and PAP to take pity on you?!?

To be continued...

Anonymous said...

Continued from above...

7. This story also tells me that he doesn't have money for any renovations?!? And does he know that monthly conservancy charges in new BTO estates is MUCH HIGHER than the rest of S'pore??? Not to mention he will probably chalk up higher utility bills also in bigger flat. And don't even talk about things like property tax which he never has to pay his whole life as he was staying in rental flat. The day-to-day running costs of staying in 5-rm flat will be AT LEAST 100X MORE than when he & his father was staying in rental flat. Has he figured out all these?? I seriously doubt so, since he hasn't even figured out his finances to buy the freaking flat in the first place!!

8. OK, after all the above criticisms, now is to figure out some resolution. The most important thing for him is to reduce the cost of his "mis-judgement". He MUST appeal for reduction of the penalty, even 50% also good. Yah I know, all the penalty clauses are in the LEASE AGREEMENT he signed and are LEGALLY BINDING. But he needs to bring across as being INADEQUATELY ADVISED by HDB officers, not being GUIDED through the financial aspects, and finally being hit by unforseen circumstances out of his control e.g. Eurozone crisis, global demand slowdown, China slowdown, credit squeeze, affecting his business etc etc. If you don't try, then CONFIRM you will LOSE that $26+K HARD-EARNED money.

9. Try to make a deal with HDB --- reduce or even remove the penalty, SO THAT he can apply for a smaller flat (I strongly suggest 3-rm first, and just grab 2nd floor or 3rd floor if that is all is left --- you can always upgrade later). This is to bring across the message that you are not playing the fool, and anyhow try your luck at selecting a BTO flat. But you are in fact trying very hard to have a stake in S'pore by finally buying a flat for the first time, and also trying to help your dad have a better life in his twilight years. So yes, you need to show your sincerity and seriousness to the HDB people. Bang table and demand to talk to their senior managers.

Lucky Tan said...

anon 21:26,

Please follow the YouTube link and read Admund's story for yourself. He initially received a HLE for $399K which gave him the impression that he could get a full loan up to 90%. Also, Admund's income is not low $80K a year so technically a $400K flat is not too far out of reach.

Even if the flat is on the high side, to penalise someone $28K is downright unfair especially if they depend on you to approve their loan.

Anonymous said...

Mah Bow Tan said lowering land cost is like raiding reserve.

Now you know how we build up such an impressive reserve?

liyan said...

wow a 5-room flat?

to be honest the day he started having problems with the HLE, he should have "down graded" to a 4-room.

i agree with the buy low and upgrade later concept.

HDB's practice may be harsh and unforgiving, but applicants must not allow themselves to get into such grey situations.

Anonymous said...

Lucky,
That $399K HLE was way back in 2005 and for a different BTO. Just like for private property, even if you got an in-principle-approval for $1M bank loan back in 2005, you don't use that to rush out and buy a sweet condo in 2012, without first checking to see how much loan you can qualify TODAY.

The $399K HLE is totally irrelevant to his case now. That's why he didn't mention it in his video at all.

FYI, the procedure for each BTO application is to FIRST GET HLE, then you can go down and book a flat. This is why Admund explained in his video he DEFERRED his booking appointment becoz his initial HLE was having problems being approved.

After 5 BTO applications, Admund will be well versed with this BTO SOP.

And finally when his initial HLE was approved, it was for $333K which he then happily took in-hand and went down to HDB and then selected a $420K flat. Which he ought to know on that day, and on the spot, that he had to cough out additional cash of $47K after paying $40K downpayment and $333K in-principle HDB loan.

Maybe Admund was too euphoric on that day. Maybe the HDB clerk was too interested in knocking off at 5.30pm sharp to bother with bringing Admund down to earth and going thru the mind-numbing analysis of home loan financial planning. Whatever the case, the fact is that there was already a shortfall of $47K created when Admund went ahead to sign the Sales & Purchase Agreement.

Which Admund then promptly forgot about until the time to sign the LEASE AGREEMENT and to collect the keys.

Yes, as a public good and utility, to punish someone using private market standards is going beyond conscience. But this is S'pore --- PAP applies market forces to everything including baby powder and healthcare for your 80-yr old parents and yes, to public flats as well.

As I have said, I'm no fan of PAP. But until the day that we have a transformed govt, it will do us well to keep good counsel in all that we do and embark in this battlefield of an island. For Admund, that best course of action is for him to work out a deal with HDB to set aside the penalty in-lieu of him selecting a smaller flat. This will solve:
1) needless loss of hard-earned money.
2) putting that hard-earned money into home equity, even though may not be "ideal" home.
3) securing a more or less "permanent" home for his father and himself.

If space is a requirement for Admund's trade, as he mentions on YouTube, he will need to carefully sieve thru available 4-rm units (taking into consideration that 4-rm units are the most in-demand and thus rather expensive on a PSF basis). He may have to settle for 2nd floor units if he wants a 4-rm that he is able to cover financially.

FYI, I'm not HDB staff or any civil servant. In fact, I'm on the wrong side of 40, barely employed and scrapping along.

Anonymous said...

If it was a private property transaction, he would have the option to sell the property in the open market.

It is this kind of stupid policies that forces citizens to vote against PAP forever.

Anonymous said...

Lucky,

Your Update is not quite correct. It's not that HDB block the sale by not giving him 90% loan. From the beginning of this BTO, Admund already got $333K in-principle HDB loan based on his earning ability, type of job and existing savings. The final $330K HLE is practically no different from the initial $333K HLE.

HDB doesn't care whether you use this $330K HLE to buy 4-rm in Woodlands BTO or 5-rm in Tampines BTO, as long you can pay the full amount.

So when you decide to buy a flat that costs much more than the approved loan amount, this means you better have the extra cash somewhere.

Similarly, for private condo, if all you can get from banks is a $1M loan based on your income and profession, you still insist on buying that dream $1.5M condo, this means you better have $500K somewhere --- rich uncle, rob a bank, drug money, whatever. You cannot complain that the banks block your purchase by not giving you 90% loan.

As for being able to do sub-sale in private property, this is a lose-money situation ever since PAP impose the seller's extra-stamp duty. I think you have to pay 15% or 20% stamp duty if sell within 1 year. So if you have to sell this means something really cock up, like you really need to let go at a loss in order to pay back some Ah Long who is about to ram his parang up your arse.

Anonymous said...

Hi Lucky,
I have been with you for the past 3 years. This is an account of my experience with HDB.

After I left school in early 2009, I took up contract jobs from 2009 to 2011. Taking contract is not by option as it’s very difficult for graduate to look for a decent full time job back then. I bite the bullet and finally joined a Japanese MNC in 2012.

Last year, I got married and bought a house with my wife. Hard to get BTO flat during that time, my wife suggested considering a DBSS flat. It took me 2 months to think through as it is very expensive. I doubt the HDB loan will be successful as my CPF record is amazingly full of company names (I submit all my payslip together). Which also means job security is in doubt.

We went ahead thinking that my wife has a fulltime employment record is quite clean for the past years. Like many bank, HDB will definitely conduct a thorough check on my financial status. I know that I am the weakest link hence, presented all my documents and remain as transparent as possible.

The first assessment from HDB is a lower amount. HDB assessed again a few months later together with an additional letter of appointment letter stating a higher salary(from me). I secured a higher loan and that caught me by surprise. I think I have successfully sent a positive signal to HDB that I am not a risk taker.

Happiness aside, I make contingency plan there after so that I can fall back on. Maintain being employed is the most important. I also maintain a financial record to control expense and manage savings. This minimise the risk that would drag my family down. All must be done with careful planning.

For his case, he is 34,a self-employed. Should his business have failed, he will have nothing to fall back on. That is probably why he has experience many assessments.

Apparently, he must have bought a unit that HDB has seriously doubt on his ability to repay. It is normal for HDB to look into the available fund in his bank account before any reassessment is being made on his financial status. HDB might even question his reported income which is inconsistent with his bank balance (my guess).

Since HDB has already promise to give a 3k lower loan amount, he should be able to fulfil the remaining cash portion.

When you picture all these up, you might notice that we cannot picture his actual intention. By the way, 5% is a penalty that is warned beforehand.

Without sufficient information given by both parties I shall not comment. However, my experience with HDB is still reasonably good.

Although I am not happy with this government on many policies, there is still something I can do to prevent losses such as monetary losses (in his case).

I think it is a bad idea for him to go to the public if he cannot reason convince the public.

Anonymous said...

//Singaporean said...I'm speechless! I can't believe this is how the govt has been treating her citizens. How does the minister sleep at night?
25/5/12 17:34//

Most probabaly they are used to it standing behind a big faceless system where policy making has no real personal accountability (individual anonymity due to nature of its collectiveness) but can result in unfortunate consequences for some who may be unlucky enough to be stepping or standing on the wrong end.

Anonymous said...

Actually this incident illustrates 1 thing very clearly --- HDB flats, even BTO, are simply NOT AFFORDABLE!!!

So much so that Sinkies are now being forced by HDB to buy waaaay below what they can reasonably pay. Why??? Becoz you need to take 30-year loan to pay off.

Even HDB knows that most likely Sinkies will face retrenchment, wage cuts, restructuring etc etc after just 15-20 years. Don't need to talk about 30 years.

Ministers and PAP MPs can talk cock sing song about HDB affordability in parliament and in newspapers. What's more important is to look at the actual actions and evidence on the ground, not the BS coming from their mouths.

Veritas said...

I tot Tharman say income SGD$1000 a month can buy HDB. How come this Admund cannot make it? He made SGD$80,000 a year wor.

Reasons, HDB is a tax to fuck the citizen. PAP do all sorts of rigging to make sure they suck dry your income. Put it simply, the price of HDB and the kind of HDB you are allow to buy is elastic. If your income is high, you can only buy pricer flat. Even if you want to buy a small within your means, PAP would not allow it.

If your family income hit somewhere more than $100,000 a year, PAP would want you to buy private property to provide a price floor for wicked speculator.

When you lost your job and your house end up in foreclosure, clowns like Mah Bow Tan will accuse you for not buying within your means.

HDB is the key instrumental policy that enslave singaporeans and keep PAP in power.

Lucky Tan said...

anon 00:05, anon 00:28,

Thanks for your comments. Just want to clarify a few things:

1. The initial HLE Admund received when he started this whole buying process was $399K not $333K in 2005 when his income was lower than in 2010. That was why he thought he could get a higher loan.

2. Admund may have made a mistake assuming the amount of loan he could obtain as a self-employed. Clearly his expectations were not met by HDB.

3. The penalty is large relative to whatever mistake Admund made. This penalty is meant to prevent people from making frivolous applications. But clearly Admund's application is a serious one.

When I bought my private property, I paid an option fee upfront. Then was given several weeks to settle my loan and the downpayment. Had my loan application failed, all I lose is the option fee.

To take 5%+option from a person who has to cancel a sale because he could secure sufficient HDB loan is excessive.

Anonymous said...

"Imagine the pain caused by HDB penalizing these people - it is unjust and unfair."
Lucky Tan

If you think this is unjust and unfair, there are a 101 issues, and depending who you are, which are also unjust and unfair.

But taken together, has 60% felt so unjust and unfair that they will not vote PAP?

Who knows, maybe PAP may improve on its vote share or even win in today's by election voting.

Just wait and see in the next 12 hours!

DanielXX said...

This Admund deserves it for having such a farked-up name.

Anonymous said...

In Sin, hit the ignore button.

When and if they stretch out to help(count yourself lucky), it will be with a distant pole.

Sin is mostly Ignore button because people only want to hear the good stuff and surround themselves with only winners and successful people.

I think there is a lot of ignoring to do around us. No wonder we are so...neighborly. LOL

Anonymous said...

"In this case, the buyer has every intention of going through with the sale but was stopped by HDB denying him access to a 90% loan."
Lucky Tan

This case is just a minority of cases lah. Definitely much less than 40% of all cases.

If it is a lot of such cases, you think PAP will do nothing?

PAP don't get 60% votes for nothing, you know!

Anonymous said...

There is no perfect society, so cannot expect 100% of the people to be happy and satisfied.

But if only 60% are happy, or rather happier with a PAP govt than with a opposition govt, then it is still OK.

Anonymous said...

Here's a little song i wrote,
you might want to sing it note for note,
don't worry, be happy

in every life we have some trouble,
when you worry you make it double
don't worry, be happy

dont worry be happy now
dont worry be happy

the landlord say your rent is late,
he may have to litagate,
dont worry (small laugh) be happy,

look at me im happy,

Anonymous said...

I am happy because even if I cannot get fish, I still can get prawn.

If I cannot be elected MP, I still got chance to be NCMP. So I am happy.

Anonymous said...

Singapore got all kinds of people with all kinds of problems, so for sure got people like Admund with his type of problem what.

So what's the big deal?

The only problem which is a big deal is that Singapore does not have a political party which is considered better than PAP by 60% voters.

Anonymous said...

How to get out of your problems? Have a positive mental attitude, don't complain,persevere and succeed. At most, you will get some kind of social assistance partly because people in power needs to justify their own convoluted interests and be on top of the game besides pacifying the self righteous and well fed community,like lucky, who keep them in power - opposition or otherwise.

After that, ignore!

Your responsibity to get out of your shit!

Don't bother me please!

Anonymous said...

Who created a society where the odds are against humanity and eventually, they will be suffocated to death despite all the GOOD WILL??

Murderers in white satin robes!

Please...spare me YOUR GOODNESS,

Anonymous said...

Unless your righteousness EXCEEDS the righteousness of HYPOCRITES...you can just forget it

Yes, there are a lot of "good people" around.

Anonymous said...

Excellent piece!

"tot Tharman say income SGD$1000 a month can buy HDB. How come this Admund cannot make it? He made SGD$80,000 a year wor.

Reasons, HDB is a tax to fuck the citizen. PAP do all sorts of rigging to make sure they suck dry your income. Put it simply, the price of HDB and the kind of HDB you are allow to buy is elastic. If your income is high, you can only buy pricer flat. Even if you want to buy a small within your means, PAP would not allow it.

If your family income hit somewhere more than $100,000 a year, PAP would want you to buy private property to provide a price floor for wicked speculator.

When you lost your job and your house end up in foreclosure, clowns like Mah Bow Tan will accuse you for not buying within your means.

HDB is the key instrumental policy that enslave singaporeans and keep PAP in power."

Anonymous said...

i just bought my BTO flat which I need to wait another 3.5yrs. I have the same worry because once one of us (me or my wife) is jobless or got another lower pay job prior to collection of keys, I will face the same issue as edmund. top up or scram. u allowed me to purchase from the start, it should be locked at the rate and amount from the start. trying buying a private condo, u get the loan from the start and pay up in stages. what's the purpose of a HLE for today when it is of no importance but rather 3yrs later figure.

Anonymous said...

After watching the video, I want to know where he took those pictures of him and famous people? London? Maybe I get my garbage collector friends to come with me.

Anonymous said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BV_GQuDND0&feature=plcp

The mainstream media is so biased and it's so clear today that we don't respect the CNA and Straits Times values.

Even the WP has finally spoke out against the mainstream media as the mouthpiece of the government.

We don't have a first world media. But we do have a first world propagandistic government and media.

Look at your ST. On the front page, it reads: MICA (Ministry of Information, communication and the arts) THe government is deciding what info you get.

R TANZY said...

PAP government has been impoverishing their citizens for many decades. They cleverly devised all sorts of convoluted policies to ensure a wide source of income stream. They need a lot of this money to pay their ministers millions of $$$ in salary including bonuses, high pension income, etc. This tiny red dot is indeed a uniquely Singapore gold mine for these ministers and their cronies.

wintergreen said...

This is another classic example of the great income divide. The PAP government has cleverly devised all sorts of convoluted policies for many decades to ensure a wide source of income stream. They need a lot of this money to pay their ministers millions of $$$ in salary including bonuses, high pension income, etc. This tiny red dot is indeed a uniquely Singapore gold mine for these ministers and their cronies.

Anonymous said...

He should go ask Tharman to back up his claim!

GARY TAN said...

Getting a HDB flat is not the end of your woe. I just got my 5 room flat ,imagine my disappointment when the exist window leading to the aircon ledge is so small that most brand of aircon system 4 multi split cannot pass through. Except LG which is not my choice. How can that happened? Think!!!

Anonymous said...

We need to support the PAP so that they can solve all this problems. The other parties cannot do anything.

Yours Toothfully said...

This is such a sad story. If Admund hadn't made it, I guess many Singaporeans would still be in the dark. Look at all this progress and achievements.

Anonymous said...

i think he cannot assume HDB will go all out to help him just because he is a Singaporean. if he had choosen a cheaper flat, there will be no problem although i feel the MP could have at least get HDB to reduce the forefeited amount.

Anonymous said...

It's such a sad case.. i think many more like this...

This is how we are treated as Singaporean!

Anonymous said...

I am just curious about one thing.
Flat cost 420k. Loan approved 330k and downpayment paid 40k. So balance cash top up is 50k. All these facts is known 2 years before payment. In that 2 years, he made 80k + 80k =160k as per his income tax statement.
Surely he could afford to save 50k from a 160k income.
I feel we are not told the whole story.

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