Thursday, July 05, 2012

This video troubles me....


Update:  One day after this posting was made, the video below was removed from YouTube. Fortunately, Alvin (of alvinology.com) had the foresight to save a copy of the video.  I have restored the video so that the contents can be seen and issues discussed. Remember the issues here are not about religion (which religion). It is about an organisation operating in a manner that is less than sensitive to other religious groups in institutions educating young children. 

My initial concerns were the recruitment strategy of this religious groups. However, commenters have pointed out that religious leader is linked to the City Harvest Church as committee member and the organisation is affiliated with the City Harvest Church.  Given various controversies surrounding the CHC and it's teaching of  Prosperity Gospel, the recruitment strategies of its affiliate will cause deep concerns among parents. In the video, he said that poor children should be encouraged to make sacrifices to give. He told the story of one child in his church who woke up very morning at 5am to make food to sell to her friends in school so that she can give money to his organisation's building fund. 


"When young people learn to give, God will prosper them. When they can learn to give when they are poor, they will be able to give when they are rich"


"I wanted a church that is built by young people. Even financially supported by young people. ....God also said to me, 'I want you to raise up a church supported financially by young people, by students, so that you can show the world that I can work, I do miracles with young people." - Tan 
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I was searching for videos on YouTube related to the City Harvest Church and I chanced upon this video of a Singaporean by the name of Tan speaking to a group of Russians. I do not know exactly who he is but what he said really troubles me. The relevant portion is the first half of his talk.

 
In the first part of the video, Mr. Tan told the Russians the recruitment strategy for his religious organisation. His primary target - school children. He explained that he would prefer to go directly to the school to recruit them to his organisation but the laws in Singapore forbid him from doing so. To get around this, he used school going children to persuade others to join his religious organisation essentially turning our schools into recruitment grounds. His religious groups have penetrated 70% of the schools in Singapore. Notice in the video that the funds raised by each group of children appears with their photos to highlight their achievement in bringing in donations to the organisation.
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While I strongly believe religion plays an important role in our society, the strategy deployed by this religious leader to specifically target school going children in their teens really troubles me. At this young and tender age, a child's exposure to the world is limited and they are high impressionable - they can be easily influenced. Children are also to susceptible to peer pressure. By bringing these children into his organisation and imparting teachings that may be different from those of the children's parents can cause tension in the family at a time when parent-child relationship is critical phase.  In a child's teenage years it is the parents that play a key role in guiding them and many will pick the right time to bring their children to mosques, churches and temples to introduce them to the family's religion.
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Whatever his intentions are, he is playing a unhealthy game in our multi-religious society. Imagine if other religious groups using the same strategy competing actively to recruit school children- imagine the tension and suspicion it would cause. When I was in secondary schools, I had friends talk to me about their religion but they were never part of an organised deliberate strategy to recruit for a religious group.
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Every religious leader has strong conviction that his is the 'true' religion (or the 'true version' of the religion) that will save souls but children are not fair game...please recruit them when they are older, less vulnerable and more able to think for themselves.

185 comments:

boilingwok said...

Well, I am not suprised by this. I have been proselytized to in NUS often. They recruit people in educational institutions and it is annoying frankly. Universities are not places for christian recruits.

Lucky Tan said...

boilingwok,

University? They are doing it in secondary school. That is why I;m so concerned.

Anonymous said...

Did a quick google search on this guy and his church has a wiki page. Some extract from wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_God_Church):

".....This is emphasized this through messages such as "Christianity is the renewal of the mind not the removal of the mind" and "Education is the fastest way out of poverty" as well as through the church's Academic Excellence program that encourages youths to serve God and do well in school at the same time.

Academic Excellence

Every year, students taking their GCE 'O' Levels and GCE 'A' Levels are motivated with the promise of generous prizes such as iPads, iPhones, iPods, vouchers and cash should they achieve to meet the required grade.

Since the start of the program in 2005, Heart of God Church has given out $30,000 worth of cash / vouchers. iPhones and iPads have also been awarded to the Top Students and Most Improved Students....."

Serious?

Anyway, I have heard of some Secondary uniform CCA, which is of religious-based, trying to convert some of the students in the uniform group to their religion. Creeps me out.

Anonymous said...

The person on the video is Tan Seow How of the Heart of God Church.

My only son joined the church 4 years ago and became very involved in the church. He tried to convert my wife and myself who are not christians but we refused. Somehow he does not treat his parents with the same respect and obedience. The 2 pastors at the church have become his new parents. The home has turned into a hotel where he comes back to rest when he is not consumed by church activies and friends from church.

To put it bluntly I have lost my only child to this church. He is completely captivated by their vision and his parents have been relegated down and demoted low priority.

Anonymous said...

Hi Lucky, I have been a long time reader of yours, but this is my first comment! keep blogging, i love your blog!
Anyway I recalled when I was in JC (3~4 years back), almost half of my class was attending heart of god church (hogc) at paya lebar. They retain the youths interest in attending the church by dishing out generous gifts (it's either a ipod or iphone, i cant quite remember) if the attendees achieve improvements in their actual A level results. My brother was in secondary sch then and he also had schoolmates eager to bring him to the same church. During exam period, they even gave out brands essence of chicken to "recruit new members".I've attended their church service once and I wasn't too impressed. (think CHC style, loud rock music, close eyes, raised hands sway to the music and all) The cell group leader was also very persistent in wanting to bring me to church and keep talking to me on MSN then even though we only met in person once.
oh, i just did a brief googling on the web and the pastor in the video you shared is actually the founder of hogc! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_God_Church

Anonymous said...

the pastor in the video also runs a private school called regent business school. (google HOGC+regent business school for proof)
my friend who is a follower of HOGC couldn't get into a local university and opted to take up a business diploma in this school.

Anonymous said...

Heart of God is City Harvest's Church satellite church.

Same methods and same doctrine as City Harvest. Kong Hee preaches at Heart of God too.

Anonymous said...

Lucky tan,
didn't the PAP doing the same all along when they go around educational institutions to promote the PAP religion ? Didn't the Teo going around JC to spread the PAP docile and endup kena fu#$#ked ?

http://www.sammyboy.com/showthread.php?119349-%91F**K-you-Sir!%92-%96-Angry-JC-student-scolds-DPM-Teo-for-dodging-questions-at-Pre-U-semi

ah lian said...

Er... PAP start their "inception" from kindergarten!

Anonymous said...

Exactly.

Anonymous said...

But did he break the law?

If he did, I am sure the authorities would have gone after him.

Lucky Tan, a lot of things people do may make you or me troubled, but if these people do not break any laws, it will remain just that - make you or me troubled.

And by the way, no better alternative to the PAP for 60% to vote for also troubles me.

Anonymous said...

"And by the way, no better alternative to the PAP for 60% to vote for also troubles me."
Anon 5/7/12 21:30

Who care whether you are troubled or not?

Anonymous said...

Lucky, thanks for highlighting this aspect of Christian Evangelists. In the old days they went house to house using sophisticated psychology to seduce the gullibles into their fold. This was banned.
Yes they have succeeded very well in getting hold of the youngs. I know of many family problems when the children from strong Taoist and Buddhist family came hold and start running down on the traditional religious practices of their parents. I have a nephew who got converted from a Taoist/Buddhist to a Christian upon entering the University. He even refused to eat from the utensils the family use. They use all sorts of tactics. Some of them really unethical and immoral. Quietly, they are destroying the fabric of Singapore society and the papist Leegime is not doing anything.

Anonymous said...

hey guys, we do not have to accept all these sitting down...

Look at the guy, he is a crook. Lets work on him. With the help of the net, lets track him down.. monitor... and expose him....

My kids have grown up and they are fine... But, I cannot sit back and see other children fall victims to these crooks...

Lets keep an eye on such crooks and expose them...

If you see him in Casino, capture him with your phone and paste it in the net... if you are his neighbours... keep watch on his movement....

Do not let such crooks get away...

Huang EC said...

Oh dear, it looks like a repeat of the sinister ways of that pastor from the lighthouse church. I wonder if ISD and MOE are aware of this.

Anonymous said...

Wikipedia on Heart of God should be updated to state that 'Heart of God' church was founded by City Harvest Church.

If City Harvest wants you to give till you are broken, then Heart of God is to soften you up and prepare you to give and give and give.

CHC and Heart of God try to behave like PAP and NTUC; obviously intertwined, but try to stay apart as legally as possible.

Anonymous said...

Something is wrong about our society. How can the society permit this parasite to continue poisoning us?

Anonymous said...

Let them be, the gov don't care as all these helped gov to keep poor people off the streets and provide self-help to people in need, so the gov can washes it's hands off all these people.

The gov is not going to get into all these sticky business lest it loses even more voters.

MIW looked dumb every time they open their mouth, so this time they are acting clever.

CHC was caught only because they applied charity status.

I ponder over death when I was in Kindergarten and my conclusion is nothing is satisfactory.

If hell awaits me, so be it.

Anonymous said...

To continue,

actually, since I live here, this is hell.

Hell has come to me already.

Anonymous said...

@ Anon 5/7/12 17:25,

Sorry to hear about your son's case lost to this HOG church.

Looks like strong evidence link the HOG and CHC in same group. Read also HOG pastors look up to Kong Hee as "mentor".

I can only pray that God will redeem your son back to you safe and sound.

What netizens can do is to warn people about such kind of church out there. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Tan Seow How is the Committee Member of City Harvest Community Services Association.

As wealthy as Kong Hee, this person seems to be more interested in money than peoples, he could be the owner of some multi-million dollars bank account.

Anonymous said...

Very sad that Christianity is being abused and misused as a toolfor money making.

This is definitely against the true Christian value.

Very sad indeed.

Anonymous said...

A church with ties to CHC operating in our schools is very disturbing

I hope more Christians speak up to warn abt these pple using the religion for their own benefit and help others not to stray from the right path.

Anonymous said...

"Sorry to hear about your son's case lost to this HOG church."
ANON: 6/7/12 00:18

Sad to say.
We also have 60% lost to the Millionaires' Church-In-White.

Anonymous said...

Heart of God and City Harvest are not in the same group. They are the same church! They are one!!

Heart of God church was set up by City Harvest, with intention of building up a strong youth wing for City Harvest. When these young people grow up, graduate and go out to work, they are to transmit to City Harvest church.

Kevin Jang said...

Even as a Christian believer, City Harvest Church's methods of obtaining members have always disgusted me, because the church always relies on 'hard-sell sales techniques' like poaching members from other churches,enforcing quotas on how many members must be present or attending a service, and the likes of multi-level marketing. This post about Hope of God disturbs me even more, when I think about the possibility of City Harvest having many satellite churches.

The scandal has forced a lot of things into the foreground, and epecially the lack of transparency and the presence of obfuscation amongst CHC's executive members concerning the degree of their corruption within. In a rather vague and defensive interview with the Online Citizen, CHC executive members have boldly claimed that they have received a lot of love from other churches, and while the answer is very vague, I can comfortably assume that it is referring to its satellite and 'mentee' churches such as Hope of God. Looks like once you ferret out a crook, then the whole network can potentially come to light.

Ng Eng Hou said...

Religion is a double-edge sword. To the hands of the kind souls, they can help to make human beings more human. For those with ill intentions, they will manipulate religion for their personal gains. You see these in various religions. Christianity is being used to make money for those greedy pastors.Islam is used to promote terrorism.

Just feel that we should treat religion like movies and regulate them in a way to prevent exploitation of the young.

For under-aged kids who take part in any religious activity, they should have a label something like 'Parental Guidance Is Needed' , which means those under-aged kids have to be accompanied by their parents if they take part in such dubious activities.

What do you think?

Anonymous said...

So we now have little Lee Kuan Yew running loose in the religious environment. They have cracked down on the little Lee Kuan Yew running around in the government services, so when will they crack down on little Lee Kuan Yew running around in the religious arena. They better hurry before more damages are done to our society.

Anonymous said...

We live in a world that treasures conveniences.
We like things neat, clean, and yet do the job.

Christianity meets these criteria.

The traditional Taoist, Buddhist, Hindhu, insists on practices that are cumbersome:

Candles
Joss Paper
Joss sticks
Paper money
Oil lamps
Flowers
Food colourings
Meat
Fruit

Safety hazards, smell, etc. Compare that to Christianity:

Candles
Oil lamps
Flowers
Incense

All in church. Just present yourself, listen to music, stand up, sit down, kneel, stand up, sit down and donate... via credit card, giro or stay where you are, we will bring the collection box to you.

No need to remember 15th or 30th of the lunar calendar.

This appeals to the modern man & women. With modern tunes and words not some ancient unfathomable phrases and chants.
Nothing mystical. Just one focal point: Heaven

No idols, deities..

The kids like it too. simple straight forward: put palms together, close eyes, pray.
No need to remember process of going to to Tua pek kong first, count the humber of joss sticks, pray to door gods, earth god, 1 joss stick here, 3 joss sticks there.

It does not help that the "traditional" ethnic religions and faiths are not active spreading their faith.

Speak to anyone below 50 and very few can explain with great understanding their practices.

Anonymous said...

Please crush Kong Hee and his gang. They are spreading their poison into the schools like bredding rabbits!!!After all, what they are interested in is to hook all these innocent students into the system so that they become loyal, fee paying members to keep the church management rich.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Wonderpeace said...

They are dishing out prosperity gospel to children. In the video Tan told the story of one student - little shy girl who woke at 5 am to make breakfast to sell to her friends in school. To make more money, she bake muffins...etc. When she donated the money to the church, she was crying..so happy. Tan said he was touch and so God will be touch. He has no trouble demanding children give beyond their means. What about the girl's health ? Will her studies suffer ? Should she not help out her parents instead ? They are brain washing our students. Something is not right. If it is money they are after, then it is illegal - cheating/conning.

Anonymous said...

You look at the "good" generated by religion and like most people.... think think we can mitigate the evil and extract the good for society...I think...is a grave mistake.

Their good is pivoted on misguided faith and very unstable and dangerous in the long run....if you take the good that they do, the price to pay for the religious sting to society and our world is very high...in the case of bible inspired religion

make more sense not to oblige ourselves to these faiths for the good that they do when the non religious have more resources than them to do good and do it better...

if that's the case...why offer them the platform to deceive and milk our people?

Anonymous said...

i almost lost my daughter to this church too. during her sec school days she was very obsessed with church activities. i was worried but did not stop her from going. i told her i think it is good that she is opening up to religions other than the one she was brought up with which was a mixture of buddhism and taoism.

even though i was understanding, there were still lots of arguments and i realised she was slowly alienating herself from me and her siblings. on my part, i encouraged her to google for even more information about christianity and not just limit herself to one church.

this continued for 2 years. i never see her much during the 2 years. she was always busy with church activities. i did not scold or nag. i tolerated.

suddenly, she was slacking at home on two consecutive weekends. while i was still scratching my head, she announced that she has stopped going to church because she found it stupid. she took down all her blog entries on christianity, threw away her bible study notes and so on. her church friends did not 'let her off' easy. they continued to bug her, pester her, pressure her for months. her church friends who were also her closest buddies before they psychoed her to follow them to church, stopped befriending her.

later on then she told me casually that because she did not have much pocket money (we are low income family anyway) to donate to funds and so on, they made her feel guilty and bad. peer pressure all the way.

all is good now.

Anonymous said...

Don't blindly follow western indoctrinations. Time to forge a new and living way.

Anonymous said...

Thats why ministar said need politics education in Schools

Anonymous said...

Asia has also produced many outstanding philosophies (Bagua and Yin-yang etc) and religions (Taoism and Buddhism etc).

Many laughed and mocked at Asian religions with the idol worshiping and so on.

Laugh on.

Asian martial arts is a sub genre of Asian religions and philosophies.

In the west, many hospitals have used internal Chi methods or Taichi which is drawn from Asian thoughts and sensibilities to great effects, helping many old people prevent falls and alleviate many sickness.

Many westerns, have traveled to China to learn about Eastern martial arts and also religions.

Many are high skilled.

Go and look around the many local hospitals and clinics and you can see so many Asians needing medicines now.

Many only know the symbol of Yin-Yang but what does it do?

Locals have become the real sick man of the east.

We are throwing away our own treasures and heritage which have been preserved for thousands of years.

Though most have the rights to chose what religion they want, but kindly examine properly other religions first before pointing fingers.

I believe Asian religions are no pushover compared to Westerns.

Anonymous said...

I hope this is not bashing of Christians and Christianity.

Majority of Christians and churches do not endorse the showmanship of certain big churches, their questionable teachings and their ways of linking God and money.

The issue is about certain dishonest and shady church leaders, and not about comparing religions or religion-bashing.

Most Christians are uncomfortable with City Harvest Church and Heart of God. Many of us don't see them as a genuine positive influence for youths and adults.

Anonymous said...

This sort of thing already happened years ago, in fact in the mid 1990's because it happened to my son in Sec 2.

The school was not even a Christian school, but the old boys and teachers were largely Christians.I chanced upon a booklet detailing the names of those guys involved in the project and was quite concerned they were largely old boys and teachers, which makes their influence coming into play.

Why was this kind of religous recruitment exercise allowed outside the gates of a secondary school? How can they attempt to convert a young child, 13 or 14 years old, who can hardly understand what is right and wrong. Many parents were deeply distressed to learn later on that their kids went for christianing without their knowledge.

I was lucky that I found this out early, and advised my kid to think carefully and rationally before joining any religious faith that approached them using hard sell. The people involved even harass him repeatedly on the phone, to attend their church sessions after he was persuaded to take part in an initial innocent gathering that was a prelude to follow-up threats of you know what.

Thankfully, he found his senses and is now a Buddhist. Not because of any coercion or influence from us, but of his own choosing.

In fact I would not forbid my kids from joining any religious faith different from me, but they must be able to think rationally, which is not waht we can expect from a 13 year old.

Anonymous said...

Do not have other gods besides God himself. In other words, do not believe in religious leaders.

Anonymous said...

Don't make statements that don't make sense. That's the first qualification to show that you can think

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Mother Theresa's God would not succeed in Sin. Millionaire Theressa's God would.

Moral of the story? Know your audience, not God.

Anonymous said...

I have many Christian friends and they are decent people, just like you and me. These friends take religion as their personal thing and would not engage in you on religious topic unless you brought it up.

CHC is a brand of Christainity that is borrowed from USA. Talk alot about nothing. Music and feel good effect are the main activity. Members know close to nothing about the Bible. Attendance and money collection become their main task. It is really sad that our Government allow CHC to flourish.

Someone should regulate the way churches go about doing their services to the community. If any church step off the OB, force them back otherwise deregistered them.

Anonymous said...

I'm more worried about the 60% that still worship at the Millionaires' Church-In-White.

Anonymous said...

Fed up with the Christian bashing here and people, who because of one bad church, take this chance to state why they hate Christians and Christianity?

Guess what? I will never believe in those local, ethnic religions! If you think it is far-fetched to believe in Kong Hee, wait till you see people who believe that their gods can only talk in Hindi or Mandarin or some ethnic dialect. You don't find believing in that equally ridiculously?

Some of the other religions' concept of gods vs demons can be as imaginative as Lord of the Rings or Greek mythology.

Do I need to learn Mandarin or Teochew or Hindi to communicate with my God?

Anonymous said...

I remember one particular Chistian classmate trying to convert me said it is very silly for Buddhists and Taoists like my family to keep praying to our god and deities just like praying to a piece of timber or stone.

As I was quite young and not religious at that time, I did not pay attention and think much about what he have said. Now looking back at hindsight, isn't Jesus or Mother Mary also made of stone ? So why are the Christians themselves praying to a piece of stone ?

I think it is quite despicable for anyone to belittle another person's religion just for the sole aim to win them over as a new convert. And also why do these vultures keep looking out for sick patients nearing death and then try to convince them that Jesus Christ can cure them if they start to believe in Christ ?

Why are they so desperate to convert others by taking advantage of their helpless situation ?

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Don't think people here are bashing Christian or Christianity....but prosperity gospel is really very "Cultish" and deviate too far away from the original Gospel that main stream Christian Churches preaches.

Don't think many of the problem s of losing sons and daughters etc happen often at the main stream churches..... but always with mega churches.....

Also, don't think any of mega churches pastors are trained by Trinity Theological College which train most of teh main stream churches pastors while the Catholic have their own seminary and a priest is trained 6-7 years before being allowed to preach.

Think banning mega churches will solve many of the problems and this certainly is not anti-christians but for christians....

Lucky Tan said...

I will raise the red flag here for people posting comments against any religion.

This posting is not abt any religion in particular but on the approaches adopted by one otganisation for recruitment.

Anonymous said...

We must be clear about legal issues. Religion is not above the law. Main stream or not, same principles and dynamics are used to solicit for funds and labors. Same mind control strategies.

Anonymous said...

Everything that is controversial about CHC can be found in main stream churches. In smaller doses perhaps but it is all there.

Anonymous said...

You won't want to check or scrutinize all their accounts. And you know I am right.

Anonymous said...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2344499013260641680#

Anonymous said...

I like to point out to you that what gives religion this level of deference in our society that it shouldn't be criticised.

If I criticise Jesus, who the hell are the crhristians to be upset? I'm not criticising christians. I'm criticising Jesus and why should christians get offended on His behalf?

Since we're told that Jesus is a living entity, then the onus is on Him to defend Himself. Why are the christians responding on His behalf?

But it seems to me you don't get this point clear in your mind even as you think yourself a sharpened critical thinker.

I beg to differ.

Only a less intelligent person believes in a sky god.

Anonymous said...

I believeth in only one god in Singapore, the purveyor of hard truths, the creator of an economic miracle, the almighty who punishes those who dare oppose him to be condemned to regret & to repent, the father who spawned a son from whom we'll receive, with trembling hands & on bended kness, a GST Voucher come 1Aug.

Anonymous said...

I think most people will tend to blame others when there is a problem. So, don't blame the government or the church, blame yourself first (always). If you have a son/daughter and they are being lured to pray to god, then you have to ask yourself, what makes it that he/she choose that path and not listening to you ? because you always working ? don't blame the society/government for working, because if you want to live in this society you need to work, if you want to live in condo/drive a car then of course you got to work harder, so if you work harder just to get these things then its your choice, and in doing so will neglect for your son/daighter then don't blame society/others.

I am not choosing sides, but if you really sit down and look at people around you, you will be amazed that we are actually animals after all. Look at Africa Serengeti, the bulls will migrate together zebras for a greener pasture, and the lions will know where to find them.

Look at the heaven countries (US/Europe), they are the 1st world countries and yet people there are spending on credit (from future, by way of credit cards, loans etc), Singapore maybe is 50% on that path. Look at all those mainland chinese trying to get to US (especially the blind eye lawyer Chen), the heaven country to them, and yet in heaven now they are forced to buy insurance (and if you don't buy they will fine you)...

Look at those 3rd world countries, they are mostly corrupted and poor living conditions and yet rich people come from there to gamble in our city, so if you want $ then 3rd world countries are your heaven. If you want good life (by spending on credit) then the choice is obvious...

Think again...

Kevin Jang said...

I seriously think that people who engage in criticising any religion or any god of any religion here are losing it, and using this blog as a platform for their own personal agenda. Mr Lucky Tan, I would not just raise the red flag. I would delete their disrespectful messages. God or the gods have no need to come down to defend Himself or themselves against these rude individuals who expect God or the gods to condescend to their level. The post or entry in this blog here is about how people abuse religion and use it for ulterior motives, employing dubious recruitment techniques, and not any religion in particular.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Don't make statements that don't make sense. That's the first qualification to show that you can think

6/7/12 15:49

It is easier to shit than to think.

Anonymous said...

To Kevin Jang,

I think u need help.

Anonymous said...

I hope you don't get upset if I criticise your parents and loved ones since I am not criticising you.

Anonymous said...

You on the other hand cannot be helped. So, no need.

Anonymous said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalama_Sutta

The Kalama Sutta states:
Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing,
nor upon tradition,
nor upon rumor,
nor upon what is in a scripture,
nor upon surmise,
nor upon an axiom,
nor upon specious reasoning,
nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over,
nor upon another's seeming ability,
nor upon the consideration, "The monk is our teacher." [emphasis added][improper synthesis?]
Kalamas, when you yourselves know: "These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness," enter on and abide in them.'
Thus, the Buddha named ten specific sources which knowledge should not be immediately viewed as truthful without further investigation to avoid fallacies:

Anonymous said...

Criticising another's parents and criticiing an imaginary being are two different things. Would you get offended if you believe in the existence of unicorns and I say you're delusional and stupid? You would if you think that unicorns actually do exist. But they don't. Jesus is said to be a God and is the judge of everything. So let him judge. Why are the christians judging on his behalf? What is stopping Jesus from reacting? Does He really exist or is He a mute?

If Jesus really exist as christians claim, then let God speak for Himself. We don't need a christian to be someone or some other entity's voice.

If I criticise your mom and dad, it'd better be because they're were thieves or some assholes, if they're wrong. They are wrong. At least, your parents will get offended existentially. But God?

Is He mute? Apparently, he wasn't mute when he killed 124 000 innoncent children during the tsunamis, was He?

In short, christians are delusional to believe in a sky God.

If Christ did exist, let in be known that we killed him on the cross centuries ago.

It's all there in post-modernism but some people just want to live in the past. It's OK. But you think you're an intelligent person for believing in an imaginary being, you're not.

Just make 100% sure, that when you did, you guys don't end up in some other religions' hell.

Anonymous said...

I suggest LT bans all of youtube and academia to succumb to implicit pressures from his followers.

Then, you're cherry picking what you like and don't and nobody respects a cherry picker. Religion and christianity has been deconstructed and religion is a dying belief in the 21st century.

My experience has been that many christians are hypocritical, arrogant (very subtle they can't see it) and are just pious pretenders.

That's my truth. WHo are you delete my truth? You guys change your behaviour first. You pastor Con Hee was a great spiritual leader, was he not? You can't even be good with a bible, then what power does this bible has in reality?

That's the hard truth. I suggest christians spend time counselling pastor con Hee than the bloggers in cyberspace. Otherwise, people do think that many christians like to impose their beliefs on others to the extent that christians don't even entertain other peoples' non-beliefs. That's imposition. That's rude. IF christians don't want to have their religion criticise, then don't get pastor con hee stealing your money for a time.

What gives a christian the right to proselytise and they deny other's the right to proselytise back to them by suggesting that their imaginary being doesn't exist? What kind of double standards is this? If you want to preach, then remember this: do not go out and handle snakes and be a snake charmer when you yourself do not have the antidote to their poison.

Otherwise, you'll get bitten. And you did. If you want to preach to others, be prepared to get insulted and offended because some of us don't believe in superstition and myths and for good reason.

You see, if Jesus was alive today, and we did a DNA test of him?

50% comes from Mary...where do you think the other 50% comes from?

How does one get a child from a virgin birth canal?

So to every christian apologetics out there, be prepared to be offended and insulted if you go proselytising your faith. It is what it is.

Do you think it is an unreasonable demand to ask for some evidence before you believe? Even the high court judge needs it. What more a claim that a dead woke up? Are you kidding us?

Dear LT, please tell your readers. That they don't have the right NOT to be offended.

If that is indeed the case, the singapore indian curry episode should not have offended anyone. But it did offend. ANd it's OK. Because no one possess the right to not be offended.

This is where intelligence resides. Otherwise, you need to tell all the bible scholars to have a slanted view in their interpretation. We call it. Apologetic interpretation. Sorry, the mind much diverse than that.

Your blog is a sophisticated ones. You're not writing to stupid people.

I would also suggest you ban Pat Condell Youtube views.



Cheers!

Anonymous said...

Precisely. If you put it that way, the onus is on or we throw the ball back at, the religious claimers. They believe in an all powerful living entity, which is their right, but their living entity must exhibit life form in all aspect of the image we are supposedly created from.

Life communication is for living beings unless you are dead as wood.

So for reasonable people to request for the presence of the living entity, in the now, is not unreasonable.

Otherwise, we shall regard the religious intellectual verbiage as pure garbage or hot air.

Anonymous said...

The only way out for Christianity is to be....real.

Get Real!

Anonymous said...

hmmmm, the video has been removed by user. if there is nothing wrong, why remove leh? maybe even the "church" knew that it was wrong?

Anonymous said...

fortunately, kong hee and chc does not represent christianity - they are only a small fraction and what I would call "black sheep" within the christian community. i would not even consider them "christians" for preaching prosperity gospel and giving such a bad name to the faith. for those who slam christianity because of kong hee, it's your choice but i think that's being narrow minded. look around and you see many more christians and their churches serving and helping the community out of care and concern and not money. christianity is more than about kong hee and chc.

Anonymous said...

It takes tremendous honesty and stoic integrity to admit your life work has gone down the drain or you lived in misplaced trust or faith.

Let's see whether they have the courage to admit their follies.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Everything that is controversial about CHC can be found in main stream churches. In smaller doses perhaps but it is all there.

6/7/12 20:56

A tithe is a tithe even though the justification for it is no different from peddling snake's oil

Anonymous said...

Aren't they all quilty of using music to subjugate the mind for conditioning? Aren't they guilty of surrendering their minds to hypnotic scribes' spells from obscured manuscripts?

Conservative or liberal approach, the operandi is still the same

Anonymous said...

This matter has to be solved by themselves.

If the gov come out to regulate and they find it successful, slowly, they will find ways to sway people to vote for MIW also.

Grassrooters, RCers and PAers are such example.

Be careful of what you wish for.

They are on their own.

Anonymous said...

True. Hence, be real. And then slowly dissolve from the top down.

But the cleansing or purging must be done right up the top echelon. It's inevitable.

That said, what's the right narrative that makes the transition possible?

It will change our world!

Anonymous said...

The power that be must start the ball rolling. They won't,because the delusion is deep, and they will resist because too much is at stake.

Anonymous said...

13:06 talk cok. Let's see some RAW honesty first before we think that they are taking this issue of religious fraud seriously

Anonymous said...

Funny that people want to change politics but when comes to a particular faith, they put up the red flag. Hey, who are the real power behind politics huh?

Your red flag renders you an ineffective and useless idiot

Anonymous said...

have you heard of arguments that say....ppl hv rights to believe crap?

err....F U...if your crap ends up my backyard or worst...front door...our rights to get the law after you is much greater!

but then...has the law COMES UNDER THE CONTORL OF RELIGIOUS FOLKS?

Are we doomed?

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
Everything that is controversial about CHC can be found in main stream churches. In smaller doses perhaps but it is all there.

6/7/12 20:56

A tithe is a tithe. The justification for it is no different from peddling snake's oil

7/7/12 12:46

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Anonymous said...
Everything that is controversial about CHC can be found in main stream churches. In smaller doses perhaps but it is all there.

6/7/12 20:56

A tithe is a tithe. The justification for it is no different from peddling snake's oil

7/7/12 12:46

===============

But most if not all main stream churches do not teach and/or enforce tithing...... a small group calling themselves mega churches are creating this wrong and bad image for christianity.

Anonymous said...

Actually, many of the Christians I know, especially those non-Pentecostal ones are pretty decent people, especially the Catholics who won't try to shove Jesus down your throat ( as they know I used to be Christian). It is those megachurch adherents, the "Charismatic" ones,, the newly converted at secondary school, who would be false friends, to befriend you only to recruit you to "their church" in addition to giving subtle hints that other denominations are dead churches and less Christian. The moral of the story is always about money, less so about Christian doctrine.

Anonymous said...

There are many wrongs.....put some thought into it and you can have a long list..but I shall say the most damning....structurally, it is idolatry and blinding...in their own words...missing the mark and ending with the mark of the beast...on the surface, superficially clean...under the white exterior..many dead people's bones

CHC is their fruits...they can deny..it is the same badge.....are we subversive for stating the obvious?

No need....natural forces will ensure they reap from their sowing...

Anonymous said...

The authorities MUST look into this matter Tan's "church" making use of kids to infiltrate schools. My daughter, who is only 13, and her classmate were approached by another classmate a week ago to join City Harvest. My daughter is in a Convent school. Lucky Tan is right. This is very troubling!

Anonymous said...

Many families are broken up by sinful deeds of religious preachers.

Anonymous said...

The cabinet and parliament are filled with disproportional number of Christians. will they side with their religious brethren?

Anonymous said...

this is how this church reach young school children,
read this thread from kiasuparents dot com

http://www.kiasuparents.com/kiasu/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=14194&start=390

using carrots like FREE creative writing class and science lessons and without explaining clearly what will be taught until some forumers questioned them.

Anonymous said...

Win 60% votes at the next election.

Then you will have the power to solve all the problems the way you want to solve.

But not necessary the problem will be solved.

Anonymous said...

60% who voted PAP at every election is the most important group of people in Singapore.

No other group can compare to the 60% in terms of influence and destiny for Singapore, tio bo?

Anonymous said...

"60% who voted PAP at every election is the most important group of people in Singapore."
Anon 8/7/12 09:24

This is a revelation! Because although a fact, no blogger or commentator has ever put it in this way before.

Anonymous said...

//Lucky Tan, a lot of things people do may make you or me troubled, but if these people do not break any laws, it will remain just that - make you or me troubled.//

so does it mean, by the magical turn of fate, that if it becomes illegal, it will make you and other less troubled.

must your own trouble & personal held beliefs always be conditional or be validated to what is deemed legal or illegal.

Anonymous said...

//It is those megachurch adherents, the "Charismatic" ones,, the newly converted at secondary school, who would be false friends, to befriend you only to recruit you to "their church" in addition to giving subtle hints that other denominations are dead churches and less Christian.//

that is why they need to be creative away from the usual conventional approach in their packaging & marketing in order to sell to their targeted customers e.g like magic shows, secular music, bands, gifts, plenty of light, sound & glitters, etc.

Anonymous said...

Powerless and Impotent

You are all daft.

There is no crime committed by the entity.
The charges are for 5 individuals.

Lots of hot air just like politics.
All talk.

Completely powerless and impotent.

Talk some more. Wait until get sued for defamation, and then see if the fingers can type one more word.

Just one kenna, the rest will scurry back into the dark holes.

Anonymous said...

What do we want society and our world to be? Get your politics wrong, the whole place will be wrong.

Let this particular religion forces its hypocritical image on you, you will continue in the dark ages, howbeit with newer toys.

Anonymous said...

"it's your choice but i think that's being narrow minded. look around and you see many more christians and their churches serving and helping the community out of care and concern and not money. christianity is more than about kong hee and chc."

They are serving because of the proselytising agendas. Where's the sincerity in the help? It's already contaminated and tainted with an end in mind.

Do you really need a bible to be a good person?

Here's a question. Can you name me a moral act which can only be committed by a christian which cannot be committed by non-believer?

We all possess the capacity to be and do good without the need for a book.

Otherwise, we would not have survived as a species this far.

Anonymous said...

"Powerless and Impotent

You are all daft.

There is no crime committed by the entity.
The charges are for 5 individuals.

Lots of hot air just like politics.
All talk.

Completely powerless and impotent.

Talk some more. Wait until get sued for defamation, and then see if the fingers can type one more word.

Just one kenna, the rest will scurry back into the dark holes.

8/7/12 12:16 "

You seem to want to be heard even when you claim yourself and others to be heard.

You have just betrayed your own position. I suggest you shut the fuck up because Singaporeans have been oppressed for nearly half a century that there's now a bottleneck and anger towards people like yourself and the system that seek to silence and perpetuate fear in the hearts of people. If you don't have the moral courage to do what you know is right, then maintain your silence and this is most fitting for you.

Do not discourage others who respect you too much as a human being to want to join you in your silence.

Because to fight for social justice is a good thing. And to silence something good is bad.

Singapore is growing. Since the last GE, more and more singaporeans are having their political consciousness raised because they know that they don't enjoy the way their society is turning out. 40% foreigners. Enough said.

Singaporeans don't trust their leaders nor the system today. BEcause the system will not take care of you.

That's why they say: "you mati your pasal".

WHy would you want to live in such a society where it is better to die than to fall sick?

You're not sick, are you?

Majulah Singapura!

Anonymous said...

The bible is not about morality in a box. That's what religious leaders want you to think. The bible is about the tussle for powers.

Their theology has led to building religious palaces all over Europe and their king is the anointed pope.

Their POOR imitation, the Protestants and others, have their charismatic leaders in the place of the pope too.

Same same lah and that's why, it(these buildings) must be THROWN DOWN

Basically, it is built on stinking theology!

Anonymous said...

Only idiots go to churches - that's point blank honesty for you and IT IS BIBLICAL ...oh the irony LOL

Anonymous said...

Well, you can of course dismiss what I say. But if I am right, I am right(no need hard sell or like Christianity, start a following).

Go ahead, you shall remain in the dark ages with your politics :)

Anonymous said...

what justification by faith and all that nonsense...can't see through it?

Anonymous said...

"They are serving because of the proselytising agendas. Where's the sincerity in the help? It's already contaminated and tainted with an end in mind."

ANS :Don't think you understand christianity very much - maybe just look at Mother Teresa as an example.

If you take a look at what she done, then you know it is very different from the whatever crossover project.

"Here's a question. Can you name me a moral act which can only be committed by a christian which cannot be committed by non-believer?"

ANS: No, you are right about this. But it does help when you go to Church every Sunday not just to be reminded but also as a community to do it or as Christians call - living out your faith.

"Their POOR imitation, the Protestants and others, have their charismatic leaders in the place of the pope too."

ANS: means you have no clue about teh christian faith as the Pope is head of teh Catholic Church and nothing to do with Protestants.

Anonymous said...

"They are serving because of the proselytising agendas. Where's the sincerity in the help? It's already contaminated and tainted with an end in mind."

If you go to any Catholic Church, you will find a St Vincent De Paul society. The congregation contrubte money which is collected to help the poor and needy within the parish (the area under the church's care).

Every month, these people will get some money, food etc... and also other help like legal and medical etc.. These people are referred to the church or seek out by the church's volunteer.

Those who receive the help comes from all races and faith (or without faith). There is no requirement for them to convert or even attend any church service other than coming to the church to collect the stuff and have a meal..... no strings attached at all.

So how does that "proselytising agendas. Where's the sincerity in the help? It's already contaminated and tainted with an end in mind." comes in?

Maybe you do lack understanding of christianity - not all are money faced mega churches going after your money....

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Mother Theresa should have jumped off the cliff. She has been accused many times for sterilising the injections she administered to the poor and helpless because she wanted to hasten them on their way to heaven.

You must be reading too much Straits Times.

Anonymous said...

alvinology managed to repost the video. That is good news.

Anonymous said...

I saw the video. It's mind-boggling. These people are hard at work at trying to convert through cover means. I hope MOE investigates this seriously and put this matter out. This is an abomination and investigate this evangelical church.

Anonymous said...

In Australia there is currently a huge outcry against the Catholic Church for covering up a paedophile priest who committed his crimes against young children as recently as the 80's. There is huge public pressure for another inquiry into the notorious affairs of the Catholic Church in regard to abuse of children under their care.
So do beware of evil people in the religious heirachy.

Anonymous said...

We have adopted European laws. These laws are religiously bias. What is ethically unacceptable in secular practice is unnecessarily true in religious context.

That's the reason why they can commit so much atrocities in the past and now...morphed into another white wolf to commit daylight robbery.

Their crime is building their base or religious business with the monies of easy prey.

Values completely against our government, community and schools.

Anonymous said...

Ha..ha.. ya now bashing Catholic....haiz.

The Catholic is against use of condom because the teaching is that sex is only permitted within a marriage.

Hence the church's stand is to teach people to abstain from sex outside the marriage which will be the most effective way to stop the spread of aid in africa. Not promoting use of condoms......

but the church do agree that use of condom does prevent aids. If once must have sex outside marriage, do use condoms....but the church's point is don't do it to prevent it.

Ya, now the paedophile priest issue is back - so much for "You can't cherry pick the good bits only." but do "cherry pick on the bad bits only"....

No, I am not defending the Catholic Church, things do happen and bad sheep are every where. To say the Bible is useless shows lack of understanding of the book. It is as good as saying law is useless because crimes still happen..... so let's go lawless?

All I am saying is there are churches that preach what they do and CHC or Kong and their brand of christianity is not representive of what Christianity is about.....

Anonymous said...

I am very disturbed by some of the comments made here regarding Christianity and the Catholic Faith.

Perhaps one should understand that popes, bishops, priests and nuns alike are as subseptible to sin as both you and I. The difference is, they have taken a vow, a commitment to serve God in that capacity and that makes their misdeeds a lot more prominent because they represent the Faith that was founded by Jesus himself.

However, no pope can claim infallibility unless he is proclaiming a dogma "ex-Cathedra" or "Sitting as the Head of the Universal Church". Dogmas take a very long time (Centuries sometimes) to be approved as something the faithful is obliged to believe in. Within the 2000 or so years of the Church's existence, there are probably on 7 or so occasions where the pope has proclaimed dogmas and has hence claimed guidance from the Holy Spirit and free for erring.

I am writing this to illustrate that church leaders are perfectly human. If they do sin, then the proper justice should be meted on them according to the laws of the land. However, one should distinguish between the person and the faith he/she stands for. The lives of the Mother Theresas and other God-fearing holy people of this world will all come to naught if the Church is indeed a 2000 year old hoax.

However, we see today the lives have been touched, the poorest of the poor have been reached out to, through the actions of the Church just as much as the followers of the Hindu, Islamic, Buddhist, Jewish faiths etc. have contributed to society. Pope John Paul II himself made public apologies for the sins of the Church in the year 2000. He sighted how the Catholics forced religion into Latin America, the unequal distribution of wealth, forcing Galileo to proclaim that the earth is the centre of the universe, etc. He did not hide from the fact that the Church has not erred in his ways. It takes a humble soul to be able to say these things on behalf of the longest standing institution on the face of this earth. But the Church has to remain humble in its deeds and be accountable for its wrongdoings. Yet at the same time, it also needs to stand-up for what is right.

So please, if there is something negative to say about the pope, the priest, the bishop, etc...do direct it to them but do not equate this to the Church. It her brokenness she has done a lot of good for mankind and will continue to do so.

Anonymous said...

I fully agree with you what you said - well said.

patriot said...

A home or house is broken only when the household members have failed to keep it in good condition. So, any church reputation that is ruined by the preacher and or follower has to be considered a broken or un-reputable place. How to call a church run by sinner?

Anonymous said...

But we are all sinners (in the case of Christianity) including the Pope and his priests.... and they never pretend that they are not......

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

They preached a god they have no idea of

Anonymous said...

God never appointed any man in robe or pastor to take the high seat but they did. And they do so because blind followers gave them the power to be their god.

So they take your money and speak like god to you

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

See, told you the law is bias. It protects the sin of religious people

Anonymous said...

snip snip snip :)

Anonymous said...

There goes your constitution right. Apparently, religious people have more rights to shit than others lol

Anonymous said...

Wooooo..forbidden sex is sin to lucky. Have you been lucky you sinner? Ha

Anonymous said...

and you make comment on a religion you know nothing about

Anonymous said...

I listened for 20 mins, not a sentence or word from the Bible. All he says in give money, you make money. Sounds like pyramid scheme or snake oil seller.
To target teenagers like this in secondary schools (some of them our premier schools) is insidious and damaging to young minds. It's encouraging them to become greedy and materialistic, everything in life is about $$$, I don't any mention of this in the Bible.

Anonymous said...

For the christian apologetics, please note that you cannot have a discussion on dogmas? How do you debate dogmas? By definition, that's not possible and christians are dogmatic.

They are always right even when they're wrong.

With regard to your ignorance on the works of Mother Theresa, please refer alternative literature. Start off with Christopher Hitchen's the Missionary Position. It speaks of MOther Theresa.

Mother Theresa is no mother. She just want children to go to heaven; the sooner they die the better it is.

Catholics should stop overglorifying people and things. They glorified the pastors of the catholic church and hundreds of altar boys were raped and these pastors merely said sorry and they're clean as a whistle because God forgives all sins. It's OK for Con Hee to sin 'cos god will forgive him. I don't think Con Hee was wrong as his bible taught him greed. Did not the bible uses the carrots of heaven, virgins (for the Quran) to entice believers to enter it?

If heaven is not greed, than what is. An eternal communion with god. That's mighty boring. Who would want to spend all eternity praising a deity? I rather stay on earth. It's much colorful here.

More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason.

As much as many lives have been touched, many lives have been destroyed too. 124 000 children died in the tsunamis in aceh and every where...now, we are told that god is all-good and all-powerful and we are told that nature is created by god, so how could an all-loving all-good god lets harm befall innocent children?

If he's all-good, he would use his powerful to prevent such a harm from happening but he didn't. He lets it happen. Clearly, god is either all-good but powerless or powerful but evil. We do not want to conclude that he is evil but we can sure conclude that these two attributes that god is all powerful and all-good is inconsistent.

God is in the same category as unicorn and santa claus.

Anonymous said...

It took the catholic church 500 years to learn humility before Galileo was punished to be burned on the stake but thankfully he ends up with house arrest for life.

500 years too late. Galileo is dead.

Anonymous said...

and you make comment on religion you think you know and the blood of men and women throughout the history of mankind is on your hands

Anonymous said...

Tell the cowardly and hypocritical lucky to go fuck off with his censorship

Anonymous said...

The bible is not the same as secular law. You can raped hundreds of boys and still be forgiven in the bible.

In secular law, you got to atone for it. There is a consequence.

In fact, biblical laws are horrendous, sacrificing women to satisfy the lust of luth, stoning adulterers? till death?

There are many barbaric acts in the bible. So that is not a book of love.

That's an imaginary book about imaginary things.

Anonymous said...

Well said 19:07

Anonymous said...

"and you make comment on religion you think you know and the blood of men and women throughout the history of mankind is on your hands"

Whose hands, really? The crusaders or the inquisitioners? Since man is sinner, why is the lord's house run by sinners to begin with?

Enough said. You can believe your imaginary beings. Some of us prefer reality. It's much cleaner than to have an overbearing god overlooking your every move. That's thought control at its best.

Anonymous said...

This video is indeed troubling.

Anonymous said...

If christianity is such an idiotic faith, then why do the power that be permit two sets of contradicting values in society and world?

Christianity has been spouting senseless doctrines and dogmas for centuries and wrecking up society and our world and our laws still protect them?

Evil indeed has two faces then.

Anonymous said...

To deceive people is criminal

SKYWalkers.SG said...

Kevin Jang, I really don't want to comment, but your mindset is entirely wrong, that's why I need to comment.

Anybody has his right to believe in anything, you have a right to believe in god, gods, God, or anything you like, that is not scientifically proven.
Why do I bring up Science?
It's the only thing that through rigid scrutiny, that there is some basis of semblance to truth that we can understand.

Without the scientific method, I can say water dissolves in salt, and I must be right, since I say so.

However, if I have faith that I am Son of God, I must be right, because faith is just that, unproven, a belief.

So why do you disparage people from discussing or disputing god, gods or God or anything of belief, if you do not have scientific proof of such.

Shouldn't you be more humble and wary of what you say, or the basis of what you say, or only based on your beliefs, ie, non-proven?

Everybody should respect another person's faith, but that respect should not be turned on its head, after-all, we are talking about belief systems that are not scientifically proven.

Anonymous said...

No, you can't believe in something that CREATE BLOODSHED AND DAMNS THE WORLD

You don't have a right to believe in something you can't substantiate with concrete evidences when your beliefs KILL MILLIONS AND CHEAT FOLKS OF THEIR LIFE SAVINGS

Anonymous said...

You see ...if you believe in superman...that's fine because your beliefs don't build countless of useless worship buildings out of monies from gullible idiots or you perpetuate a doctrine that condemns everyone to hell because they don't buy into your nonsense or you are awaiting a messiah to take over our world and those who don't prostrate themselves before your version of Jesus will be burn in hell etc etc.

No, you don't have a fuckingbright to do that but with super man...the world is safe from nuts like you

Anonymous said...

Add..you don't have a fucking right to solicit monies in the name of god

Anonymous said...

PREACHERS ARE CON PEOPLE.

BELIEVERS are IDIOTS.

Anonymous said...

If the laws say Christianity has the right to flees people then we all know who the real enemy of the state is

And that's stating it honestly eventhough it sounds offensive to hypocrites

Anonymous said...

You are free to believe in goofy of Mickey mouse....but your Christian god which you can't substantiate and dangerous, you are NOT FREE TO BELIEVE

You want to believe in your god CAN....ask him to appear IN COURT...if he doesn't care to show up....you should shoot down your own faith or turn your pastors to THE LAW

We want to see justices done for centuries of bloodshed and daylight robbery

SKYWalkers.SG said...

0:29 "In order to get out of the spirit of poverty, you got to renew your mind... when you have faith, you move the hand of God, you move heaven." He's teaching about The Secret. Amen. To force God's hand to favour yourself, it is the same as The Law of Attraction where the Universe align itself according to what you think!
Aha! I don't need God, I just need The Secret. :P

Anonymous said...

i wanted to say something, but the comments has sort of turned into a joke. meh.

Anonymous said...

Can MOE please do something about it. I felt threatened that the church people are distracting school-going children and are teaching our kids the wrong thing. Money is not easy to earn, we want our kids to have enough food and necessity during education. Asking them to give, to who? It ended up with Sun Ho and I tell you, her video sucks like satan on the loose while our kids are made poor if we go by the video. The Tan guy need to go for mental check-up.

Anonymous said...

face it,chritianity is an idiotic religion and it shows that our fine education taught people how to get good grades but not how to think.

Anonymous said...

face it, you are a a classic example of an idiotic product of our fine education that taught people like you how to get good grades but not how to think. Hence your conclusion that "chritianity is an idiotic religion". Please show some intelligence and respect for other's faith and race. Stop showing your idiotic and stupidity. Thank-you.

Anonymous said...

from start to the end, this fake pastor is preaching to give $$$ to the church. something he claimed "belongs to God" and not giving means have no faith in God? These are nothing but craps and never the teachings of the bible.......

Also, from his preaching, we can conclude that He and Kong Hee are "not good christians" since they never give what they receive from the church back to God....or does it fit into something that he called "Greed" when giving away becomes painful when the amount grows big hence "easier for poor to give" the money "blessed" to them is meant to be given away more...to tithes, offering, building fund, missions etc....not to enjoy the big house, mercedes, good food etc.....

I also think that MOE should step in and do something to protect our youth....how can you try to cheat the youth of their pocket money??

Anonymous said...

http://beyondsundays.wordpress.com/

JCK said...

"Give me the youth, and Germany will rule the World" - Adolf Hitler.

Anonymous said...

This is lucky most serious and important post so far but I doubt the authority will listen and clean up religious fraud for fear of offending innumerable number of blind followers and the consequences of backlash.

Politics will not change for the better when leaders knowingly allow liars and cheaters to prosper in our society. When leaders lack the courage and conscience to right the wrongs in society, society can only become more corrupt and hypocritical

Anonymous said...

For those who bash Catholics and talking about the past etc... you sure read too much but never understand anything. You just need to open your eyes and look around.....

The Japanese were horrible during WWII and happened right here in Singapore too.... and as far as I know, they never admitted they did those atrocious things....so should we still be angry with them? Chase them out and boycott their products? Will all Toyota and Honda car owners dumped their cars into Singapore Rivers? Can you be reasonable and realistic?

For those talking about science, science is good but have yet to prove God did not exist. But you will still believe in science and says believing in God is "blind" faith. Proof (that God did not exist) that you wanted (from the Christians) was never important here to you.....right? Equally blind "faith" in science.

Having said that, I do understand that "Christians" like those from mega churches have been a pain in the axx for many including the other churches with their fake prosperity gospel. Hope this is the begining of their end and the image of christianity will improve with them gone.....

ah lian said...

Er... since there's no new post yet...

Is the "recruitment" going on in a Christian school? Like St Margaret's, St Andrew's, CHIJ, St Joseph's, etc?

If so, in all fairness, to have guest pastors invited to the schools to preach (and of coz! asking students to accept God) is to be expected, by parents and students.

I'm not a Christian, but I went to an Anglican Sec Sch, and every Fri we had chapel service. Muslim or other students with different religions can OPT OUT of this chapel service. Have a free period!

I think teenagers are not soooo easily swayed lah... I wasn't leh, got a bit put off actually :p ... but I say, I've nothing against Christians and do understand why people believe in their God...

So, if parents are v concerned, then it's best NOT to send their children to Christian schools.

Unless pastors are allowed to go to non-Christian schools to preach? Then it's really wrong.

Anonymous said...

We are not saying God does not exist. We are saying that if God exists, and we can accept his existence, he is NOT supportive of Christianity nor approve of her corrupt ways.

Please bear in mind that the Christian God(or their concocted version) is a ...personal God. One that you can relate to like humans.

Well, there is no proof this God will be related in that manner like a father would relate to his children.

If you feel otherwise, then get this "father god" to speak up or show concrete evidence he supports everything that Christianity stands for.

Or else, reasonable men and women will have to assume that God, assuming he exists, does not back the corrupt church. If so, there is no basis, absolutely zero basis to extract monies from the public to fund religious buildings or places of worship and the law should act against such practices.

To allow such practices in the absence of evidences is a disservice to the general public.

ah lian said...

Aiya... paiseh... somehow I missed the para about using school students to recruit more school students...

No wonder, I thought what's so "troubling"?

Ya, ya.. v wrong. Macam multi-level marketing!

Anonymous said...

aiyah...so long as you have a leader or he is on a mission to serve this god don't know from where come out one....these leaders will need a place to grow their church or BUSINESS lah...so all kinds of tactics will be used to get people to cough out blood money lor...

this is cheating lah if no proof that what they are saying is true....

if like that can...then I can also sell you all kinds of derivatives by making all kinds of claims and say....you can't prove it is not true so it must be true lor....hehe

Anonymous said...

There are stupid people everyone. Some will die for religion because the preacher said so. Of course the preacher is smart enough to stay away from harm.

Some people are willing to be conned. They will part with thousands for dollars for gold dust and glittery paper that they think is 'blessed' by the gods. Some think paying $8888 for such paper is a bargain.

Every religion got its own snake oil.

Anonymous said...

ah lian,

you just confirmed that missionary schools do not force or try convert the students..... they have service - of course. this is to cater to the christians children since many of the students are christians. BUT they do not force anyone to attend the service.....

the origins of the missionary schools were to cater to those who could not go to schools and some like chij was to to look after the abandoned girls...etc.

In this case, the pastor is using students from the church to go to their school to entice their friends to come to the church......it is not about being swayed but young students should not be asked to entice their friends to go to a church especially if their parents are not attending....

students duty is to study and not recruit members for the church and certainly should not be asked to give their pocket money away and / or encourage to work or start any business (legal or not) to make money just to tithe!!!

I don't know what to say of a pastor or any adult that praise a young girl to prepare food to be sold to fellow students.... imagine when there is food poisoning..... and everyone who prepare food for sale must have a license from the authority......
how can 1 praise a young girl who not knowingly broke the law?????

Anonymous said...

Church-In-White

They make a poor man blind.

Anonymous said...

"For those talking about science, science is good but have yet to prove God did not exist. But you will still believe in science and says believing in God is "blind" faith. Proof (that God did not exist) that you wanted (from the Christians) was never important here to you.....right? Equally blind "faith" in science."

You have a misconception. Science does not believe in faith. Faith is defined as the belief of a thing in the absence of evidence. Science is the exact opposite. Science is an evidence-based epistemology. Its conclusions are based on deductive reasoning.

You're confused between deductive reasoning and faith. You do not say that you enter a building and it did not collapse upon you because of faith. You entered the building knowing it is unlikely to collapse on you because of deductive reasonings based on bending moments in structural engineering. Deductive reasoning is not blind even though it has its limitations.

Another confusion you have which is common is that one can prove the absence of a thing. Can you prove to me that pink elephants do not exist? Could you prove to me that unicorns do not exist? How about the flying sphagetti monster?

One cannot prove the absence of a thing. The onus for a person to say that a sky God does exist is left to the individual to prove because non-believers do not make such a claim 'cos they don't have to. It is the christians that goes telling people that there is a sky God; so the onus is on them to prove it which they never could and have.

Even the absence of evidence is NOT a proof of absence; nonetheless there is a great tendency for such a sky God to not exist. Which is more likely a pink elephant or the existence of a bird?

Do you BELEIVE that there is a flying teapot orbiting one of the rings of the planet Saturn right now?

Now, do you think it is REASONABLE TO BELIEVE that there might be a flying teapot orbiting one of the rings of the planet Saturn right now? Of course you don't.

To postulate a God that created the world is not a helpful explainations. It is in fact a cop out. A non-explaination.

Who created God then?

Sorry LT,

But I got to point some many of these erroneous fallacies. It is precisely the less intelligent mind that needs to believe such superstitions as a sky God and the dead coming up alive or a baby can be born from a virgin birth canal?

It is these sort of minds that are captured by pastors such as Con Hee and Tan See How. I hope the authourities investigate that Pastor Tan See How.

Cheers!

SKYWalkers.SG said...

to prove that God does not exist is very easy.

postulate: If God exist, since It is omnipotent, omniscient, therefore It must be seeing this sentence right now... If that is true, for God to show his power, I ask of him to make everyone's watch show there is a Thirteenth Hour.

wait... wait...

Ok...

No such thing happens.

So logically:
1) God does not exist.
2) God exist, but It does not see this page, therefore It is not omniscient, ie, It is very busy, so, no point pray to It since It is hard of hearing.
3) God exist, It sees this request, but It cannot do anything, therefore It is powerless to do miracles, therefore no point praying to a powerless God.
4) God exist, It sees this request, It can do miracles, but It does not want or care to prove It exist, so God is bo-chap, so no point praying to a bo-chap God.

It's all logical.
So either way, without scientific proof, God either does not exist or God is not worth anything to pray to.

And for 2000 years, God still sticks with an old version of Bible without updates, if God cares?
C'mon la, iPhone5 almost coming out liao lor!

SKYWalkers.SG said...

I can also prove that Christians do not exist:

1) God is real. God made everything.
2) Christians believe in God.
3) God made gays and lesbians.
4) Christians don't accept gays and lesbians nor same sex marriage.

Therefore, Christians don't believe in God's creation, therefore, Christians are not Christians.
non-Christians accept gays and lesbians and participate in Pink Dot, therefore non-Christians are Christians.

See?
Be careful what you think and say, if you are not in the spirit of Jesus, especially if you can only "think" along church doctrines.

Anonymous said...

Don't be ridiculous. When you make sense, you make sense and when you don't, the world will mock you.

Fact is, they failed to understand what god means or represented in the bible so made a complete fool of themselves through literal interpretation.

Anonymous said...

aiyah....no intelligence or revelation lah

with all the edewcation still...very bodoh neh

Anonymous said...

Singapore Miracles by the Church-In-White

They can make a heavily guarded limping terrorist disappear.

A once-in-50-year flood appear every year.

Make GST into a tax to help the poor.

Make it possible to buy a HDB flat on a $1,000/month salary.

ah lian said...

@ Anon 10/7/12 18:19

You wrote: "I don't know what to say of a pastor or any adult that praise a young girl to prepare food to be sold to fellow students.... imagine when there is food poisoning..... and everyone who prepare food for sale must have a license from the authority......
how can 1 praise a young girl who not knowingly broke the law?????"

Er... I agree that sending out students to recruit other students and "psycho" them to give $ is rather like a pyramid selling scam...

But no need to be too drama about "food poisoning"...

Some aunties also make homemade kueh to sell during CNY, to friends and friends' friends. No license one. Taste really good. Heh.

And if the context is different? For eg. if a student bake special cookies to sell as a project to learn about entrepreneurship?

Just saying. Passing thought nia.

Anyway, our society will always have con artistes (some wear white, ha!), so if teenagers know early to think for themselves -- whether with parental guidance or through lessons learnt -- they can grow up not to be victims of pyramid selling scams. :)

Anonymous said...

You have a misconception. "Science is an evidence-based epistemology. Its conclusions are based on deductive reasoning." And for things they cannot explain, they says :

"One cannot prove the absence of a thing." it is non-existence...thus onus for others to prove it exist and not for them to back up their claim that it does not exist??

What happen to "evidence-based epistemology" and "deductive reasoning" ? Thrown down the drain??

Yet it make sense to you that one can claim things do not exist without any scientific reason what so ever??

This is the BIG confusion you have which is common. An excuse science uses to explain things they cannot explain - it does not exist.

For example, science have investigated and yet to be able to explain the eucharistic miracle of luciano.... and it is just convenient to brush it off as blind faith and/or hoax.

It is not the onus of science to prove the non existence or religion to prove the existence of God. It is the onus of everyone to respect each other's belief. Having faith in God does not mean disagreement with science and in case you are not aware, the Church is very active in the study of science as well.....

In conclusion, science cannot prove God exist either can it prove that God does not exist. In truth nobody knows if God exist - believe it or not, it's up to you.

Instead, look at what faith (any faith) teaches you and help in your life as a human being. Having said that, there are cults and many scammers out there claiming whatever....sad but that's life...it happen everywhere ...politics, business and professions.

Anonymous said...

Faith is not blind. That's not taught in the bible. And don't complicate a simple " yes or no" with pscho babble.

Go and ask your living father whether he is alive or dead and you'll get a straight forward answer.

Only idiot(not even intellectual),liar,cheater,dishonest baboon and greedy pigs will say that it is so scientifically complex that you can't prove a simple relationship or catch a monkey stealing from an offering bag.

Anonymous said...

Christianity has misled the masses and still mislead the masses.

Clueless Christianity is a one way ticket to hell

Anonymous said...

"Christianity has misled the masses and still mislead the masses."

How wrong is such a statement.....Christianity never misled anybody....

It is those "misled people" by false preacher false gospel that is leading people astray.....

Anonymous said...

Christianity as an institution is a failure and a joke. History has attested to that and even today,still a menace to the world and society.

Anyone who denies or attempt to lighten that is dishonest

Anonymous said...

You can't prove a simple relationship you should close shop...it is as simple as that.

Anonymous said...

If you think you are right, take the challenge, establish your claims in the court of law.

We dare you.

Anonymous said...

It is getting very complex.
It used to be fake/false christian,
now there is fake gospel and phony preacher.
Then there virgin mother and divine child.
Last but not least there are real believers and deluded believers.

Hey, it is very confusing leh.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Santa is fake.

But subsidies for HDB flats are real.
It's true.
The pastor-in-white said so.

Anonymous said...

"I will raise the red flag here for people posting comments against any religion."

You see, that's part of the problem. You're towing the PAP line here. We are allowed to ridicule and criticize other stupidities and injustice but for some reasons, religion is always out of bounds.

If nobody is allowed to point out how ridiculous it is to believe in an invisible man in the sky --- the fundamental premise on which CHC and HOGC build everything they do, it is no wonder that so many naive young minds would fall prey to them.

Why would you give half of your pay check to Tan Seow How or Kong Hee? Because the invisible man in the sky will have you wallow eternally in fire and brimstone if you don't give money to the church. Because the invisible man in the sky loves you but you must give money to buy his love.

In any other context, had I made up such shit to con suckers into giving me money, I'll be hauled before court for fraud. But when it's done in the name of religion, suddenly it's all fine. Not only that, the law, in the name of maintaining religious harmony, prohibits me from pointing out how ludicrous it is.

You close down CHC and another church would rise up to fill its place. But if you go after the root of the problem --- keep pointing out the absurdities of believing in an invisible man in the sky, maybe that would ruin the market for other Kong Hee wannabes.

You want to get rid of charlatans like Kong Hee? Then people should be allowed to crack mean jokes and say hurtful things about idiots who believe in religion --- it's for their own good.

Anonymous said...

All Religions are real.

The trouble is that there are people distorting the real meaning of those religious teachings for selfish and personal gains that have give some religion a bad name and reputation.

Just a glance at the number of churches with different ideologys will tell you that not all the teachings are quite the same, hence the breaking away in the first place. So, who is teaching the real stuff or right values among them?

Anonymous said...

Anyone who made such a statement "Christianity as an institution is a failure and a joke. History has attested to that and even today,still a menace to the world and society." is purely ignorant....

Just look at the schools, hospice, home, orphanage, convent, boys town, hospitals etc... set up by the various christians (as well as other faiths) to help the needy, how could that match "a menace to the world and society" ???

Anonymous said...

Revenues from casinos did good too, so?

Anonymous said...

What can we say to such a person? All we can do is to appeal to scientific values and if he doesn’t share those values, the conversation is over. If someone doesn’t value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn’t value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?

Anonymous said...

Logical disengagement is merely offensive but the worrisome problem is bordering on religious fraud and spreading deep seated delusion and deception in people which will have long term consequences on everyone.

Anonymous said...

"Revenues from casinos did good too, so?" - NOTHING except to prove that you are an idiot

Anonymous said...

This isn't just limited to warped Christian organizations. It is common all around the world. People from various religious organizations trying to infiltrate schools under the guise of "student welfare" etc. They take donations and fund for example terrorist activities.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

I remember being "invited" along with a friend for their Easter service about 7 years back... at first, both of us thought it was just a regular get together with a friend whom we have not met for years. Until dinner... with the "cellgroup" and being brought to the then rented space until they had the funds to build their own church. What really amazed me was how the youths (I'm a youth myself) work themselves up to a state of hands waving, eyes shut and swaying... it's almost like they are working themselves into a fit or self orgasm. I still clearly remember being drawn a diagram, of how you believe = heaven, believe other = hell. Sorry, try harder please. If every one religion cites the same, I'm going to hell one way or another. Then, being passed the envelope, even told to just give a token towards their building fund too. I refused. I do not believe in a church built up on hype (I studied in a Catholic school that doesn't impose it's beliefs and morning prayers are inclusive to all) and to give my pocket money on something I do not trust in is against my principals.

It scares me how many have been brainwashed and even the parents too. No doubt, it brings them a network, and possibly assurance that they are granted a ticket through the Pearly Gates but the idea of giving up my mind to be another of the unquestioning flock drives me to believe that if God is inclusive, no way will He/She impose His/Her membership to heaven by religion and for Man to lose what makes Him a sentient being, capable of reason.

Anonymous said...

公说公有理,婆说你不讲理,到底谁有理?Ok, ok....i read the comments. It really sound correct! I am amazed by all tt u all can write n say, whatever it is, at the end of the day, it is the decisions n choices tt we made. Some choices we regret, some choices we live happily with. As parents, aren't we suppose to be supportive? As friends, juz be there for them. I learn from my parents n teachers tt we need to be kind and considerate in our words, don't bad mouth others cos wat goes round will come back to us. :)

Anonymous said...

@Lucky Tan, comments on your blog has become a Christian bashing. Is this what you want? You are the administrator and you have the power to moderate and provide balance views. Be careful that others do not use it to incite hatred. take care!