Friday, December 14, 2012

Principle of equal pay for equal work...

UPDATE: I would like to thank everyone for commenting on this posting. Many cited examples of when people would be paid more for the same work because they have experience or better qualification. When you apply a principle, you stick to it as strongly as possible and every exception you make you need to think hard about the justification. You starting point is "equal pay for equal work" ...now suppose you decide a driver should be paid more because of his years of good service with the company - it is perhaps a justifiable exception as it is attainable by other drivers. Suppose the ability to speak English is important and it was argued that PRC drivers are generally not good at English  so they were paid lower- you ought to be able to transparently state that drivers who have "English qualifications" are paid extra. This, however, was not the case. The drivers were discriminated against purely based on nationality.

You notice in the experiment, they researcher explicitly stated that the 2 monkeys knew each other - the angry monkey couldn't find any acceptable justification for his "unfair treatment". ...that was the source of the problem.

Suppose a company pay the men more than the women for identical jobs is it acceptable? In the 2012 US Presidential Election, in addition to selecting the president, one of the bills that Americans voted for was a legislation that ensure women get paid the same as men for the same work. In Singapore, some companies (Stat Boards, Govt entities) make an exception by paying Singaporean men a few hundred more for serving NS and I don't hear complaints from women about this because the men lose 2 years of income serving their NS and the 'extra' is does not come close to compensating for their sacrifice. However, if women found out that men who don't serve NS (foreigners) are paid more because of race (ang moh?) and gender they will surely take issue with it. So it is important to start with the basic principle and the burden of proof and justification fall on those who cannot follow this.

Coincidently, Minister Lim Swee Say spoke about "equal pay for same job" yesterday.
[No to Equal Pay for all Nationalities] - he believes that we should discriminate people based on nationalities:

"Whereas for foreign workers, a bulk of their income is actually sent back to
their home countries to support their families and of course, the cost of living
in their home countries is very different from that in
Singapore."

"Therefore, the labour movement, the unions have expressed a lot of concern. We are highly uncomfortable with this idea of same job, equal pay, because we feel that this will disadvantage our local workers and their families."



Singaporeans need to earn more to support their families than someone from India or China - his family back in home needs less money to survive. On the surface it looks like it make sense. However, think hard about this. This situation does not favour Singaporeans at all. Foreign workers coming here to take up jobs at lower pay for the same job (same work) means that employers are less willing to pay more for Singapore workers. This causes downward pressure on Singaporeans' wages and indeed wages have stagnated for many Singaporean workers because these imported workers have lower cost of supporting their families are competing against them. As the minister and head of our national union, he did not safeguard the interests of Singaporean workers ...and continues to encourage employers to exploit foreign import by paying them lower - it makes no economic sense for businesses to hire Singaporeans to do the same job for higher pay when they can hire a foreigner and pay him lower. 

---------------------------------
One of the arguments used by Singaporeans who opposed the strike was the PRC drivers signed a contract stipulating their remuneration so they should just accept whatever pay they signed up for even if others are paid a lot higher doing exactly the same job. The PRC drivers were not just shortchanged by discriminatory practices alone. They found themselves at the losing end of changes in work week as well as poor living conditions - it is always easier for people to tell others to accept and live with life's injustices so long as they aren't the ones at the losing end. So if you find the your-co worker who sits next to you getting paid double what you're paid for doing the same job because the boss and him were in the same ruby team years ago...how will you feel?

I would like to thank a reader for posting the link to the following video:


There is something immoral about luring foreign workers to Singapore with the intention of discriminating against them and taking advantage of their ignorance of local market rates for labor in order to pay them lower for the same work. Even animals with much smaller brains than humans realise there is something very wrong with high inequality.....but why do the PAP leaders keep telling us it is acceptable. You know why? See the monkey in the right cage...the one getting happilly the grapes (not peanuts) ..he is not protesting. 

181 comments:

Anonymous said...

No such thing in real life, anywhere in the world. No 2 person is 100% equal. Different people have different skillsets. So when I hire people for the same job, I look at their CV and past experiences. Those that match my requirement better will be offered a higher pay. I may give someone without experience a chance for the same role. But I will not be prepared to pay the same pay as the other guy who has more relevant experience, for the same role. I think it's ridiculous to pass a law that says I must pay everyone the same regardless of their experience and qualifications.

Anonymous said...

Please give employers and HR some flexibility to hire the people they want to attract using various perks and pay structure. And impose some stupid equal pay for equal role thing for organisations.

Anonymous said...

"Even animals with much smaller brains than humans realise there is something very wrong with high inequality.....but why do the PAP leaders keep telling us it is acceptable."
Lucky Tan

But why 60% keep voting PAP to say PAP is acceptable?

Anonymous said...

Because 60% and PAP are not animals with much smaller brains.

That's why high inequality is acceptable.

Anonymous said...

Only animals of same type and breed are equal. They look the same, eat the same, behave the same.




Anonymous said...

Anon 14:59.
Your arguement does not disagree with this experiment. Simply, the 2persons with different skillsets will not be doing equal work.
Older and more experience workers do not get employed if they demand higher salary for doing the same work.

Anonymous said...

Not true. There are times I may be prepared to try out someone for the same job even though he has lesser qualifications or experience than what I had wanted. But I will not be prepared to pay him the same rate as someone else more experienced. No 2 persons are the same. They can be doing the same role, but to be fair, I must pay the one with better track record and better qualifications better.

Anonymous said...

Like that all those people who have been working for eons in the same organisation and getting increment every year should get a pay cut to match that of fresh hires doing the same job. I know you want to criticise or SMRT for not paying the PRC contract drivers the same as Singaporean drivers but this is classic example where qualifications greatly different. And PRC drivers still have to go for English classes and required more training. Do you know it is like a dream come true. If I have to hire someone and spend time and energy giving training and English classes, why should I pay them the same as someone who is already fluent in that area? And I am sure SMRT is not the only organisation in the world who do not pay all employees equally. Imagine, a good performer is paid the same as a poor performer for the same work, is it fair from the good performer's perspective? I know many of us are the poor performer and that is why we are like communist, want everything to be equal so that we the lower rung gets up the ladder but a moment, think of the good performer.

Anonymous said...

If one is below average, you would always fight for every is equal because it brings you up the chain. But if one is above average, you would want some differentiation for being more talented and hard driving etc. The problem is with such communist leanings where everyone is equal, no one will be motivated enough to be above average since u just get average pay.

Anonymous said...

It is the same job/duty that is being discussed here.
Those jobs that require different skill set or base on result such as sales/marketing and piece rated production are of a different category.

Anonymous said...

If only 60% of the Sinkies were as smart as the monkey.

Anonymous said...

It depends on perspective. If one is rich, inequality is acceptable, if one is poor inequality is not acceptable. It is difficult to pay everyone the same cos everyone is different. But treating people in a human way is the basic fundation of any business/company/corporation of today. This place is not a labour or concentration camp or modern slave center.

Anonymous said...

The reason that there is such a pay disparity is because there is NO union. A real union would never allow such an arrangement. Its primary job is to protect workers' interest.

So there you have it - Singapore has NO union.

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Anonymous said...

"There is something immoral about luring foreign workers to Singapore with the intention of discriminating against them and taking advantage of their ignorance of local market rates for labor in order to pay them lower for the same work."
Lucky Tan

Actually these foreign workers are just choosing the best available job lah. They will be worse off if they remain in their own country what. They are born in the wrong place what, what to do.

Just like 60% voted PAP because PAP is the best available lah.

It will be worse if vote opposition to be govt. What to do, this is Singapore what.




Anonymous said...

If your employee, regardless of qualifications or experience, produces the same quality and quantity of work as the other John Smith, shouldn't they pay be equal?

Having said this, in reality, it's difficult to measure quality. In particular, the quality the came out of experience.

If you tell me the PRC can converse in Singlish, can advise the commuters the best route to take, where to transfer, where to detour should there be a blocked route, OR our local bus drivers cannot do through above and knowledge is no different from the PRC drivers, then I think they deserve the same pay.

We should measure against the output and not the input.

Anonymous said...

Principle of equal pay for equal work ....

If the PAPigs practised this, all the PAP MPs will be living in the Istana Home for the Elite Aged.
And PAP MPs will be attending their Meet-the-People Session.

Anonymous said...

this is a good one in quite some time.

short and to the point.

Lye Khuen Way said...

Well, well. Do it long enough, to a large enough segment of the population, and yes, you will get the Walls Street protests and the Arab Spring!

But wait, how is it not happening here?

Well, you see the ruling party had mastered the art of live boiling frogs.....
Give you enough to make you thank them, then milk you on the sly. Bet, you can come up with personal examples a-plenty.

Anonymous said...

From Palmer incident, we know crystal clear that PAP can make big mistakes. The problem is PAP do not admit that they can make big mistakes even if many Singaporeans are trying hard to enlighten the PAP. PAP believe that they are always correct as PAP are the elites.

One big mistake in the history of Singapore that PAP has ever made is to open the floodgate to tsunami of cheap foreigners. This mistake has led to adverse negative consequences for many generations of Singaporeans to bear.

This opening of floodgate to cheap foreigners mistake has snowballed to such a big problem that no one knows whether and when it can ever be solved.

If this mistake cannot be solved, who is going to sallow this irreparable and unforgivable mistake?

Anonymous said...

.....how will you feel?

What the f are you complaining now!! I dun wish to do this but you are really an ignorant fool becos you have been so cosy here and like to start criticising at the drop of a pin... Are you even aware you are such a lucky bastard, in other places the corrupted officials will just shove dirt down people's throats or just shoot someone before sitting down to sort out a deal of apology. We are so lucky we dun see that here.

Why are you so petty still when you have everything almost perfect here? Are you the ignorant big mouth attention grabber?

Anonymous said...

Someone above said that the PRC can demonstrate they are as efficient and proficient in English and know Singapore roads as well as Singaporean drivers should get equal pay. BUT that is not for you to judge. That is for the boss and HR of SMRT to judge. Get it? Obviously the HR of SMRT and the boss of SMRT who has more information than us about the worker's aptitude feels that the Singaporean drivers deserve more. Trust me, every under-performing employee thinks and believes he is as capable as the more capable employee. It's not for the employee to value himself. Its for the boss and the market to place a value on the employee. If you think you are underpaid, then show me you can find a better job elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

The PRC drivers are paid 5 times more than what they could get any where else in China. Apparently coming here to work is like a dream come true. Why should we pay them more where no one else in the world will pay that much for someone of that calibre? Bear in mind they have killed a couple of people on the roads already. And all bus drivers who killed people are PRC. And you want to use high pay to attract more PRC drivers? At this pay, most of them already dream to come. In short, that is their market rate. And if they think they deserve more, then go find another place that will pay them more.

Anonymous said...

When someone is drowning, no need to throw stones at SMRT. Frankly, i don't even know why you are still fighting for the PRC bus drivers pay and supporting the strike. you guys insist the PRC drivers are as capable as Singporean drivers. It's not for you to judge. How presumptious. Its for the BOSS of the PRC drivers to judge. There are lots of same job scope out there. BUT, there are no 2 individuals that are alike. This equal work for equal pay is provided both individuals are exactly the same. Imagine such a stupid law is implemented and every under-average incompetent fool will demand same pay as their capable collegue of same rank and same role. And its for the market to decide your pay. Not the employee himself decide his own pay. Every employee will think he deserve as much as their colleague. And if you think you are underpaid, I am sure you can find a job that can pay you better. If you can't, this means you are not underpaid. The market decide your pay. Not YOU.

Anonymous said...

In short, if one thinks he should be paid as high as your colleague, there should not be a law that says the boss die die must pay you what you think you deserve. The boss has the right to decide what he wants to pay you. If you think you are underpaid, then find another job. No employee should force or use threats to blackmail the employer for more pay on grounds on "equal work on equal pay". Even China has moved away from such communist stance.

Anonymous said...

"The boss has the right to decide what he wants to pay you. If you think you are underpaid, then find another job."

Well said.
The boss (voters) decided not to pay George Yeo. So George Yeo went to look for other jobs.

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Anonymous said...

"No employee should force or use threats to blackmail the employer for more pay..."

Well said.
So please tell grandfather to shut up.
No more threats or blackmail about repentence.
Or how difficult it is to replace George Yeo.

Anonymous said...

"This equal work for equal pay is provided both individuals are exactly the same. Imagine such a stupid law is implemented and every under-average incompetent fool will demand same pay as their capable collegue of same rank and same role."

Well said.
The GRC system allows every under-average incompetent fool to get into parliament as their more capable collegue of same rank and same role.

The BOSS (voters) should decide the merits of each politician in SMC only elections.

Anonymous said...

Exactly. 2 wrongs doesn't make a right. So if we do not like the GRC system, we shouldn't be promoting this equal work for equal pay nonsense. And these PRC employees are not the type who have been in Singapore for a while. They have been recruited from rural China to do the work. For this blog or even SDP to go around speculating they are of the same caliber and same culture as Singaporean drivers without basis is worse. The HR and the middle managers of SMRT are in a better position to judge whether they are as competent in English, culturally similar to us, know the roads as well as us, than this blog owner or Vincent. There are similar jobs - but individuals are different and deliver different outcomes. And attitudes matters too. The singaporeans drivers have been driving weekends to serve their customers without complaints. The PRC drivers think that driving weekends is a crime. Think about it. And I've hired PRC workers from rural areas before. THEY ARE DIFFERENT. Period. Some people don't even understand that highly accented Mandarin and so it cause more problems in customer service.

Anonymous said...

Personally, I like PRC foreign talents very much.
Ever since the strike.
I think they teach Sinkies how to be more daring and demanding.
And this is valuable if Sinkies are ever to vote out the PAP and institute a regime change in 2016.

Anonymous said...

Equality never comes cheap. It demands a lot of bleeding and suffering to achieve. Transport woes are common in every country. Singapore is unique cos we do not have other alternative like private cars or vans or buses. The proper solution is to abolish CEO and ERP. At the very least people have alternatives.

Anonymous said...

If anyone would have read the blogs from any of the prc drivers, you would have noticed that they can think, write and reason as well as or even better than any pap mps in the gov.

Anonymous said...

If there is any sign of equality in singapore, the ministers would not be paying themselves millions.

Anonymous said...

Lucky, I give credit to you for allowing all posts including those seemingly opposing you or so called "absurb" which the stupid rulers would rub out. Please think and consider, have you been a little too trivial and petty lately?

Anonymous said...

How good is minister Lim Swee Say's command of the English Language compared to Parliament Speaker Palmer?
Does it mean that Palmer should be paid higher and or given higher appointment?

Anonymous said...

Palmer or Swee Say.
Who gets higher pay?
PM Lee decides.
Becos he is PM.
The pay is decided by PM.

Anonymous said...

But driving a bus requires the same skill no? You mean between 1000 drivers, some apply brakes better?
Is their pay dependent on passenger comments?

How will you measure?
Distance driven?
Less sick leave?
More attendance?

Older gets more?
Younger gets less?

Point here is that all should start with same base pay.
But as we know, they start with different base from day 1.

Anonymous said...

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-------------
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Anonymous said...

@15:48

If no two person the same? Why are all PRC drivers getting same low pay than all Malaysian drivers? The discussion about fairness here should be equal work OUTPUT, equal pay. Bus driving is a fairly straight forward job with fairly measurable work output based on number of trips or distance travelled. This is quite similar to the task the monkeys are asked to perform. So why should there be differentiation based on nationality?

Anonymous said...

i suggest a driver is paid per trip completed.
Trip's rates should be based on the distance and difficulties of the journey. There should be electronic button installed at every seat so that passenger can rate the performace of the driver by pressing the button. Better performance better pay. All driver can now be self employed as they are paid according to trip same as taxi driver. There would be no shortage of Singaporean. A Win Win situaction. Less full-time workers to cause headage.

Anonymous said...

Pay should be based on output i.e. results.

PAP has been underperforming over the last 10 years.
Therefore they should be voted out.

The paper qualifications of the PAP candidates are not relevant.
No correlation with results.
The paper qualifications of PAP candidates have been funded with taxpayers money thru government scholarships.

Anonymous said...

I say bring in more PRC workers.
Sinkies need to learn how to organize a strike.
They can teach us.

Anonymous said...

Are you trying to say that every employer or superior has to go around "defending" why they pay certain individuals better than others? Not everything is a Science you know. That is the problem with Singaporeans. I pay someone better because I value him higher. As to whether there is a "formula" I apply, no. And for that person who says pay should be based on output and not input. HELLO? Since when is qualifications doesn't matter? If doesn't matter, why do parents go to great length to give their children a good education? As an employer, from my experience, and I think I will get flak for this because most reading this blog are underperformers, there are people who are self-motivated and very driven. These are the guys who are likely to do well in school because their expectations of themselves are high. Some people are internally motivated, no so much by money alone. Put 2 kids together, one might end up an overachiever without any rewards, while the other doesn't mind being the last in class. So, when I look at a candidate, I look at their school results and their achievements in colleage etc. And from many years of experience, there is a strong positive correlation between good academic performance and work performance and attitude. Those who do very well in their studies are very likely to be motivated internally and doesn't demand for pay increment for them to work hard. So I have a preference for individuals with certain background from my past good experience and therefore pay them better. And do you mean this is discrimination? And SMRT probably have better experiences with Singaporean and Malaysian drivers than PRC drivers who like to go on strike and take MC for small matters and who refuse to work on weekends. And in any case, by paying these PRC workers their pay today, they are already 5x higher paid than what they can get anywhere else. We are doing them a great favour. Do you know they dream to come here at that salary?

Anonymous said...

Pay every fairly - YES. Pay everyone EQUALLY? NO. And people here always says PAP Minsters stupid and we can do a better job. Their past academic performance and job performance does not indicate anything. I can be a better Minister because I know how to criticise. How many of us are actually as "successful" as these Ministers in the private sector? And do you really think it does not matter to your hirer? Everyone thinks just becuase you are able to criticise the Ministers means you are more capable. I can criticise you means I am more capable. Therefore I deserve to be paid millions. NO. It's very easy to criticise. Trust me, if KBW were to make HDB flats fall to $40,000 each like 50 years ago, some of you will be very happy. But some will be very upset. So you think the work is easy?

Anonymous said...

And I just want to highlight there are certain jobs where the PRCs are actually paid higher than locals. Case in point: Luxury retail outlets that target the PRC tourist market. So 2 have 2 sales assistant in a luxury retail market doing very similar job, but the PRC is paid higher because of his ability to "bond" with fellow PRC tourist customers. And from what I know, the Singaporean staff is not going on strike. They are well aware that the company prefers certain nationality more than them because of the target customers. And in the case of SMRT or bus service, the target customers are locals. Obviously you want a bus driver who can communicate with the locals if they ask for directions etc.

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Anonymous said...

Lydia Lim sure know how to song the tune of the elites.

If life is about being successful, then the world will be living hell full of wayang crap!

Anonymous said...

Religiously minded women in Sin are leading the way to hell.

Anonymous said...

@Anon 14/12/12/15:55
The people who are longer with the company and getting higher slary will need to do more (mentoring newbies etc) than a newbie otherwise, he will be sack in no time and be replaced.

For this reason, all MPs regardless of party or how many terms they have been an MP draws the same allowance as they are suppose to be doing equal work. So if they get the same salary but do lesser work, they deserve to be voted out in the next GE.

Anonymous said...

"This situation does not favour Singaporeans at all. Foreign workers coming here to take up jobs at lower pay for the same job (same work) means that employers are less willing to pay more for Singapore workers."
Lucky Tan

If this situation does not favour Singaporeans at all, how come majority of Singaporeans (60%) still vote PAP?

That means this is not really an issue with the majority of Singaporeans lah, tio bo?

So Lucky Tan, why do you want to make an issue out of it?






Anonymous said...

I think only a minority (40% or less) of Singaporean workers jobs are affected by cheaper foreign workers.

This explains why PAP can still get 60% majority votes.

It's that simple.

Anonymous said...

The pap is now so devoid of talent. The people at the top like Lim Swee Say are basically very shallow as u have shown. In Australia the way the Australian society protects the interests of their workers is to make the business pay the same wages and benefits to the foreign workers. In this way there is no cost advantage in employing foreigners. If Lim Swee Say cannot even see the simple logic of this argument, he is not fit to lead the union movement. He better go play Zoro full time.

Anonymous said...

Hopeless and stupid Singaporeans

Anonymous said...

The 60% support for the pap is a mirage. Hold a genuinely free, fair and democratic election, then we can say what % of support the pap really has.
Why is the papist Leegime so afraid to allow neutral foreign observers to witness our GE ? They must have something to hide or they are ashame that the world will discover that the Singapore elections is skewed to favor the ruling party.

Anonymous said...

true about the art on ft depressing pay and how come lssstill allow ft in singapore by such bif numbers

Anonymous said...

3 outcomes if there is Punggol by election.

1. PAP wins with increased votes compared to GE 2011.

2. PAP wins with less votes compared to GE 2011.

3. Opposition wins.

If it is outcome 1, that means opposition in 2016 totally no hope lah.

If outcome 2, it means PAP can still maintain 93% seats or at lease 2/3 majority in 2016 lah.

If outcome 3, it means PAP may at most lose 2/3 majority but will still be govt. (worst case).

But whatever the case, PAP will still be the govt in 2016 lah.

Because it is very hard for opposition to win even if PAP has scandals or more scandals.

- from kopitiam political analyst (who had also predicted correctly that Tony Tan will win PE 2011)




Anonymous said...

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Honest man said...

"...Do you know they dream to come here at that salary?"
15/12/12 10:15


Based on this, you will not shortlist me to be a bus driver?
The Teo Chee Hean explained recently that singaporeans are better educated and therefore look for better paying jobs.

Perhaps I am not the studious type and I like to apply what I can do.
So, I do not strive higher than O levels, or complete my N levels.

So, I am better educated than the PRC and I want a better paying job. But the pay for the bus driver is too low!
It satisfies one condition and not the other.

The PRC dream of earning an income here. I too dream of earning a MP's salary.

Being an employer, you source for the cheapest price. Yet you must understand also that the cheaper the resource, the quality may be compromised. Your goals will be short term gains with serious long term implications.

Repair and renovate is not always a good solution. Sometimes demolish and rebuild with new materials suited for the task is better.

Pay a higher salary, improve process and innovate products is the route and philosophy. Quick and cheap is the old concept of business. Why do you think religion lasts for centuries?

Honesty is not cheap, its costly.
Dont expect it from cheap people.

Anonymous said...

You get to this point is because you are stupid lor...what else right?

Anonymous said...

"Being an employer, you source for the cheapest price. Yet you must understand also that the cheaper the resource, the quality may be compromised."

Bullshit!
As an employer (voter) paying the highest salaries in the world for politicians ... I can swear that quality has no relation to the salaries we are paying.
The Pro Alien Traitors are expensive and lousy.

Anonymous said...

Stupid people stupid talk

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Anonymous said...

Inequality is not the issue.

It is the extent of inequality.

When the top selling car model is the BMW, that's gross inequality staring at you in the face.

Anonymous said...

For sure the pap will lose if there is a by-election. I take bet 10 to 1.

Anonymous said...

Reap what you sow. Sow stupidity, reap stupidity.

Anonymous said...

The world is an ambiguous place. Problem with Singaporeans is we expect everything to be spelt out properly like equal pay for equal work. Embrace ambiguity. Not everything is a science. Sometimes I just like a painting more. And I don't know why. Just like sometimes I like certain employees more. It's subjective and ambiguous. That's make life more interesting.

Anonymous said...

Growth entails growth in stupidity too.

Anonymous said...

I cannot agree with your analysis. A lot can change in next few years. I believe sentiments a few months before an election has more bearing on the eventual result than the result of a by-election now.

Anonymous said...

I think a lot of people have forgotten abt the 陪读妈妈 issue many yrs ago. Those prc mothers complained abt the fact they can no longer earn an income to support their kids who r studying here. My experience with prc people tells me they like to have their cake and eat it too. They want eerything to go their way. Spoilt brats. I believe they knew they will be paid differently before they came over. U think they are so dumb and dun research meh. They came for money n they felt it was not enough. Greed. Then they use 'equal work equal pay' to make themselves sound very right and that their actions r justifiable. I am no PAP supporter but i am not easily fooled by the antics of these prc drivers.

Anonymous said...

Dear LT,

You're welcome. I posted the video.

"There is something immoral about luring foreign workers to Singapore with the intention of discriminating against them and taking advantage of their ignorance of local market rates for labor in order to pay them lower for the same work."

I like to add to that. It's been my experience, unfortunately, as it may be, having worked here (I am native born SIngaporean), that "if they can makan you, they will makan you." This has been my experience because a lot of this bad culture stems from our government policies. Many managers and leaders here do capitalise on one's ignorance. My take that this came about because of the education system that breeds elitism. Individuals who rise to ranks or positions of authority in Singapore actually believe they are "capable" and far better than others as they have linked academic excellence as having been bestowed by the system to look down on others. So, it is not uncommon in Singapore that managers and leaders patronise and condescend those below them disquietly. Hyprocrisy is rife in Singapore. Singaporeans do not trust each other and there's a video to justify that which you posted. Thank you for that.

There is low social capital in Singapore. And I'm considering moving out in due time.

Cheers!

Anonymous said...

As usual another excellent article. Thanks for putting up another perspective on this topic. Really enlightening

Anonymous said...

honestly, US and UK and Europe doesn't pay people based on nationalities.

They will employ you provided you have the right of work.

if yes, for the same work, if you have more experience and higher qualifications etc, you get more pay.

Precisely because of the reasons you cited in your article.

Anonymous said...

"The drivers were discriminated against purely based on nationality."
Lucky Tan

It is because of their nationality that's why cannot speak English lah.

So how can they be paid as much as those who can speak English, tio bo?

Just like it is because of the 60% that's why PAP is in power lah.

How can the opposition be in power if 60% don't vote for them, tio bo?



Anonymous said...

"...you ought to be able to transparently state that drivers who have "English qualifications" are paid extra."
Lucky Tan

Lucky Tan, you are getting naive.

Which company transparently state that superiors should be paid more than subordinates, you tell me lah.

It is understood what, tio bo?

Anonymous said...

//It is because of their nationality that's why cannot speak English lah.
So how can they be paid as much as those who can speak English, tio bo?
Anon. 16/12/12 08:40//

How do you know all the 171 Chinese drivers cannot speak English?

And how do you know all the Malaysian drivers can speak English?

Anonymous said...

Can you say Singaporeans are refine people?

No, they are a rojak and wayang people who are ill manner and can't speak properly

They are the product or children of the meritocratic rubbish leadership of Singapore! Epic failure!

Anonymous said...

How can MPs who can't speak proper English or express themselves intelligently represent the people?

Any kuruk kucheng american rubbish collector can speak better than the singapore graduate or PAP leaders!

Shame shame shame

Anonymous said...

//Just like it is because of the 60% that's why PAP is in power lah.
How can the opposition be in power if 60% don't vote for them, tio bo?// Anon. 16/12/12 08:40

Ng tio.

If 60% votes can get 93% seats, then 40% votes may be able to get more than 50% of seats.

Therefore it is possible for the opposition to be in power even though 60% don’t vote for them.

Anonymous said...

Stupid people beget stupid people

Anonymous said...

The pap is DOOM.
No matter how they juggle the end is near.
The wise will jump ship NOW
The smart young will join the opposition.

Anonymous said...

Stupid brain cannot figure out, that's why

Anonymous said...

in this weekend edition of business times, financial writer tei hooi ling wrote an article on how the rail operation of SMRT has been literally spewing out profits for the past five years, with operating margin at 25% and ROE at 23%. Mind you, this is a public transportation company with low earnings, churning out the kind of returns consistently year after year that would have made Buffet, in his own words, "like an oversexed man in a whorehouse". And yet, the possibility of charging higher fares has been raised by the authority at the drop of the hat. It hardly makes sense that what is essentially a public service is attempting to charge its users more when it is earning mouth-watering risk- adjusted returns for its shareholders, primarily Temasek.

Anonymous said...

amendment- transport company with low earnings volatility

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Anonymous said...

"It hardly makes sense that what is essentially a public service is attempting to charge its users more when it is earning mouth-watering risk- adjusted returns for its shareholders, primarily Temasek."
Anon 16/12/12 13:31

Whether make sense or not is not for you to say or decide.

It is for the majority 60% to decide who should be govt and then for the govt to decide whether it make sense. And not just bus fares, but everything that is under govt control.

Does that make sense?

Anonymous said...

The main point is this:
Ask Sing or Msian driver about KK, Dai Poh, Jalan Kayu and they know what you are talking about. PRC drivers? Your guess as good as mine.

Anonymous said...

Try to make sense to the 60% in order to win their votes.

No use making sense in blogs and comments except to release steam or for shiok.

Siow Kow... said...

Lets hire the Greeks!

They are in debt
They need money
They are pretty ( gals )
They are handsome ( guys )
They speak.. well Greek!

A neutral language that everyone here cannot understand.. so no discrimination towards chinese, malays, indians, japanese, koreans, indonesians etc.

Good idea no?

and Gay pride movement will have meat as another choice instead of noodles all the time.

Anonymous said...

Greeks not available lah, even if they are in debt.

Not even Africans, or else there will be a lot here too.

Only Pinoys, PRCS, India Indians, Mynmar, some Malaysians and SE Asians are available.

We get what is best available, especially in quantity.

Anonymous said...

"We get what is best available, especially in quantity."

Certainly applies to your pig political party.
You got the best available shit in S'pore.

Q: Why can't MIW get mad cow disease?
A: Because MIW are pigs

Anonymous said...

Were pa staff also involved in counting election votes?

Anonymous said...

"Only Pinoys, PRCS, India Indians, Mynmar, some Malaysians and SE Asians are available."

funny is that the best there do not want to stay, contribute & get paid for their worth in their own countries. Or can they ???

sometimes, it is about the different cost structure & economic environment of the different countries and it is not about talents ?

for buying / paying the same thing here costs more than across the border or some nearby countries and this has nothing to do with productivity or talent or hard work - it is simply due to the high cost of living here and hehe this could be due to many factors that the minds of some people are to lazy to probe and would go for the easier & simplistic explanation.

Anonymous said...

That's why employers should NEVER encourge its employees to compare their pay. In many companies, we do not publish and rank the pay for all and sundry to see, and then justify why some are paid higher than others. Certain schools like St Nicholas also do not rank their students. This means the company encourage its employees to compare against himself only and be the best he can be. Most importantly, do you feel you are adequately compensated based on your ability. Once you start ranking and becoming "transparent", employees start comparing and actually become less happy. Look at those PRC workers, they were jumping up in joy when they were selected for the job with SMRT. Every year, there are thousands of applicants and only a handful are the chosen ones because the pay is 5x higher than what they could get anywhere. Its only when they start comparing with other colleagues, suddenly they become upset when in reality if they just compare within themselves based on their ability, they should be very contented with the pay. Because no where else would pay them the same.

Anonymous said...

And there is performance appraisal to let the individuals know his strengths and weaknesses. During appraisals, I also do not use another employee to put the employee down or start comparing. Performance appraisal is also private and not transparent. I like it that way. The last thing I want is people start comparing with one another and for some strange reason, everyone thinks they deserve the most in the department and everyone will end up unhappy. So just ask yourself based on your own ability, how much are you worth and is the boss paying you adequately? And stop going around asking what everyone else is earning. Just ask within yourself, are you contented? Happiness and contentment should come from within. If you are always comparing and becoming green eyed monster, you will never find peace because there will always be someone better, luckier or more fortunate than you.

Anonymous said...

And to be honest, after factoring the accommodation, the free transport, reluctance to work on weekends, and more extensive training and free English classes, I actually think the PRC drivers have a better deal. There are only paid $200 less right? Those free accomodation and transport and English classes would have more than covered that.

Anonymous said...

And I think Singaporeans have been "used" in this saga. I suspect the PRC drivers are actually happy with their pay. They are only unhappy with their fellow PRC middle men who brought them here and that is not within our jurisdiction. So with their pay of say $1600 with overtime, they end up with very little after paying their middle men. $1600 is a decent pay esp when most of their expenses and accommodation and transport is provided. So they become disgruntled with their middle men and try to find ways to suck their pay from SMRT. And of course they are probably encouraged by certain factions who have ulterior political motives. I am glad we did not give in to their antics.

patriot said...

Luckily those unhappy with their pay were foreign workers.

If they are Singaporeans, they maybe prone to corruptions because pay not enough. At least that is what Singaporeans have been told repeatedly.

patriot

Anonymous said...

Luckily majority of Singaporean voters are happy with their pay.

Or else the opposition will become government and Singapore would become a slum and all Singaporeans will repent.

Anonymous said...

Whoever posted that majority of Singaporeans are happy with their pay must be high on pap drug.
Very few people are happy with their pay all over the world. That is human nature. That is the way we are created. Never contented. That is why human can make progress while animals cannot.

Anonymous said...

Or else the PAP will continue to be government and Singapore would become a slum and all Singaporeans will repent.

Anonymous said...

"So just ask yourself based on your own ability, how much are you worth and is the boss paying you adequately?"

Well said.
Our Ministers should stop benchmarking their pay against the top income earners in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

QUOTE
Once you start ranking and becoming "transparent", employees start comparing and actually become less happy.
UNQUOTE

Well said.
Our Ministers should stop benchmarking their pay against the top income earners in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

"That's why employers should NEVER encourge its employees to compare their pay. In many companies, we do not publish and rank the pay for all and sundry to see, and then justify why some are paid higher than others."

Well said.
Our Ministers should stop benchmarking their pay against the top income earners in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

"And stop going around asking what everyone else is earning. Just ask within yourself, are you contented? Happiness and contentment should come from within. If you are always comparing and becoming green eyed monster, you will never find peace because there will always be someone better, luckier or more fortunate than you."

Well said.
Our Ministers should stop benchmarking their pay against the top income earners in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

"... The last thing I want is people start comparing with one another and for some strange reason, everyone thinks they deserve the most in the department and everyone will end up unhappy."
16/12/12 20:37

Strange.
why then do we compare PSLE results?

Why do we get Skytrax to compare scores for SIA against other airlines?

Why compare GDP numbers?

Why dont we ask ourselves if we are contented with 1% growth?

Base salaries must be transparent and reasons for any increases made transparent too. This secret society style breeds suspicion and promotes a political environment. You must be working for SQ. They do that all the time.
and see what is happening to them.

Anonymous said...

Indeed there are some corruption cases involving Singaporeans pending verdicts.

Anonymous said...

@ 16/12/12 20:37 """"If you are always comparing and becoming green eyed monster, you will never find peace because there will always be someone better, luckier or more fortunate than you.""""

yeah, and the obsession to compare & differentiate is already ingrained into children (to be burned into their psyche) as young as when they start secondary schools & streamed into technical, academic & express classes, compliment from the national EDUCATIONAL system.

Anonymous said...

Singaporeans have been voted the most emotionless people in the world...........
Is there life outside RI?

Anonymous said...

And some Singaporeans gave up their souls or offer their bodies for whatever gain, what do we call that?
Took bribe or offered bribe?
Both?

Anonymous said...

"And some Singaporeans gave up their souls or offer their bodies for whatever gain, what do we call that?"

We call them the "Prostitutes Action Party"
And their supporters are the Prostitutes.

Anonymous said...

Malaysian drivers are paid more because SMRT does not have to provide for their accomodation.

If we factored in paid accomodation by SMRT, would the pay of both the Malaysian and China drivers be roughly comparable?

Anonymous said...

Understand that 10 PRC Drivers are packed into a room with little moving space.
If each of those drivers were to contribute $200 each, they probably will be able to rent a 4 Room Flat at Woodlands with 2 toilets, 3 bedrooms, a hall and a kitchen all to themselves.

Anonymous said...

Among cabin crew, their pay also is different. Japanese crew are paid housing allowances while Malaysians, Indians, Indonesians, Taiwanese, Koreans and PRC crew are not.

Because the image of being a flight attendant is so alluring, the disquiet is not heard. Being a bus driver is not the same.

All within the same job roles must get equal pay and a transparent grading system used to justify increases. People will know what to shoot for.

Competition is healthy in this way.

Anonymous said...

Understand that 10 PRC Drivers are packed into a room with little moving space.
Anon 17/12/12 10:19

That means the room quite big lah, not your ordinary HDB bedroom. Maybe the size of a master bedroom in a bungalow.

If not, how to put 5 double decker beds, you tell me lah?

When I was doing NS, there were about 20 people to a room.

So it depends how big the room lah, not the number of people to a room.



Anonymous said...

PRC drivers are not doing NS (national slavery).

Anonymous said...

It occurred to me that the PAP does not support equal work equal pay from more than one perspective. When their wages were reviewed, the disagreed that they should match the salary of other politicans in other countries, which is similar to equal work. Insyead they pegged the wages to the top 10 or so wage earners in Singapore. In other words, higher pay for lesser work.

Anonymous said...

Good observation.
No wonder grandfather-Limpeh called our National Pledge an aspiration.
"... so as to achieve justice, prosperity and progress for our nation."

Has LKY double-confimed our suspicions?
Under a PAP government, justice, prosperity and progress for our citizens is just aspiration?

Anonymous said...

By voting for PAP, 60% agreed to whatever PAP decide, including PAP ministers be paid millions a year salary.

It is all about the 60%.

Can you make the 60% vote for your party with you as leader?

Then you too can decide what you want.

Anonymous said...

It is all about the 60%.
Anon 17/12/12 13:05

But why only PAP can win 60% majority votes?

Why no other party and people can be as good as PAP and PAP people?

Anonymous said...

Why no other party and people can be as good as PAP and PAP people?
Anon 17/12/12 13:10

Good people either make lots of money (like Lucky Tan) and/or become PAP people (like Ting Pei Ling), that's why.

Anonymous said...

Singaporeans are a stupid breed. Bad manners, poor social skills and can't talk properly...just like their leaders - only know how to wayang.

No hope

Anonymous said...

Among regional countries, the Koreans and the Japanese are better breed. The Chinese is at the bottom when comes to character/manners. Since Singapore is predominantly Chinese, no wonder they stink as a people!

Anonymous said...

aiyah...sinkapokais are a bochup and no shame bitches...no care what people say or think about them....they religion teach them mah...only the gods favor them can liao lor...they bochup then atas mah...

Anonymous said...

Must be all the foreigners add to the cold climate. I don't think foreigners think well of the Singaporean breed and that's no secret for sure

With such a lousy breed, why perpetuate it? Let it die lah!

Anonymous said...

We have stop allowing PAP to drag us down to their level of morality and hypocrisy.

Anonymous said...

Stupid breed deserves stupid outcome

Anonymous said...

Singaporeans are not a likable breed, live with it.

They only know how to wayang

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Anonymous said...

Anon 17/12/12 13:05 - Its not about the 60%, its about the 10.1% who does not benefit from PAP regimebut keep voting for PAP.

Anonymous said...

""Must be all the foreigners add to the cold climate. I don't think foreigners think well of the Singaporean breed and that's no secret for sure""

Not a surprise when certain leadership keeps on emphasizing the notion of FOREIGN TALENT every now and then backed up by talking down locals to the effect by labeling them as daft, lesser mortal, lazy, choosy, not hungry enough, etc, etc, etc....

Foreigners merely take advantage on the salvo freely handed to them, compliment from our dear dear leadership.....

Anonymous said...

This is truly the Leepublic of Singapore.

Anonymous said...

TO criticise the government all the time is not a clever thing to do. What would more clever is to study the habits and patterns of the 60.14% Singaporeans who continue to support the incumbent's mispolicies. This is the same 60.14% who agreed to the stop-at-two child policy in the 70s.

Anonymous said...

"TO criticise the government all the time is not a clever thing to do. What would more clever is to study the habits and patterns of the 60.14% Singaporeans who continue to support the incumbent's mispolicies."

All different approaches are equally important, if warranted. All angles need to be covered. You need to be strong in all depts - defence, mid-field and attacking.

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Anonymous said...

Wow. Looking at the comments. It appears that most people actually go around asking how much each colleague is earning? I actually don't. As long as I'm paid sufficient for my own living expenses and my family, I am contented. And I don't go around asking my friends their pay too. And someone blame the education system for the ranking? Come on, in education we rank because there are only that many top schools and we need to groom the talents. But when it comes to work, there is no longer examination to pass. It's about time we evaluate our priorities in life and find out what we want as individuals. I don't go around asking my colleagues their pay - it's pointless. And we begrudge CEO earn so much money, but how many of us is prepared to take the risk and set up companies? For every company that becomes successful. there is 100 that fails. And funny part is when we benchmark, we only benchmark against the ones who are already successful which is skewed.

Anonymous said...

"And we begrudge CEO earn so much money, but how many of us is prepared to take the risk and set up companies?"

Well said.
Our Ministers should stop benchmarking their pay against the top income earners in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

" As long as I'm paid sufficient for my own living expenses and my family, I am contented. And I don't go around asking my friends their pay too."

Well said.
Our Ministers should stop benchmarking their pay against the top income earners in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

"It's about time we evaluate our priorities in life and find out what we want as individuals. I don't go around asking my colleagues their pay - it's pointless."

Well said.
Our Ministers should stop benchmarking their pay against the top income earners in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

"Come on, in education we rank because there are only that many top schools and we need to groom the talents"

many top schools & grooming the talents ??????????

i thought we do the short cut way by importing talents from mostly the surrounding regional countries.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps we groom talents the same way sexual predators groom underage kids?
Young talents are then corrupted with fascist ideas & ideology.
And bonded with a scholarship.
Thereby preventing future Opposition leaders from emerging.

TEO - What do YOU think?

Anonymous said...

Equal pay for equal pay.
Why not PAP politicians benchmark pay against other politicians in other countries?

Why benchmark only against top earners in Singapore?

Possible Answer?
- Greedy lor?
- jealous lor?

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Anonymous said...

One have to be careful in assuming CEOs to have risk their lives and limbs to setup companies. Many CEOs are careerists parachuted from public or quasi-public institution into state-owned companies or their affiliates. So, no, they are the furthest thing from someone risking everything on a hunch.

But that's not to say that they are not capable and intelligent executive. Just not the risk-taking type you use to substantiate your argument.

Anonymous said...

The two situations you mentioned are exactly the same, except for the numeraire used.
In school, the currency used is grades. Good grades presumeably lead you to better school, which gives you better credentials, which open doors for you to better jobs, which give you higher pay, and presumably better and happier life.

Now substitute work for school in the above paragraph, you can see they are the same thing, except for the currency used - grades vs pay. So it should not be too surprising there are endless comparison among people in school as in work. Whether or not either comparison contribute to personal happiness is another matter.

It's just that your argument is flawed.

Anonymous said...

Is there a better alternative compare with the PAP?

Is there a better majority voters compare with the 60%?

If not, compare pay for what?

Compare rich and poor for what?

No use, tio bo?

Anonymous said...

Compare rich and poor for what?
Anon 19/12/12 08:52

Then work smarter to become rich lah. Under PAP, if you work smart you can become rich and will sure vote PAP one. Once you are rich, happy and satisfied, you will never want to vote opposition, let alone become opposition.

Anonymous said...

"Why not PAP politicians benchmark pay against other politicians in other countries?
Why benchmark only against top earners in Singapore?"
Anon 18/12/12 23:36

Why? Why not? Ask the 60% lah. They gave the mandate to PAP to benchmark whatever the PAP want what.

Anonymous said...

"If not, compare pay for what?
Compare rich and poor for what?
No use, tio bo?"

Of course got use lah!
Stir ah! Stir ah!

Anonymous said...

Just an off topic comment: the workers at Yishun have gone on strike and have been paid as a result.

Therefore, strikes work. And they are not illegal if the employer does the right thing in the same day.

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

If many go on strike, it is illegal. So they may be sentenced to jail.

But got enough space in jail for them or not?

If not, how ah? Can have 50 people to one jail cell?

Anonymous said...

"If not, how ah? Can have 50 people to one jail cell?"

Can. What is the average size of a Pro Alien Traitor?

Anonymous said...

Strike at the feet

Anonymous said...

"For every company that becomes successful. there is 100 that fails. And funny part is when we benchmark, we only benchmark against the ones who are already successful which is skewed."

Well said.
Our Ministers should stop benchmarking their pay against the top income earners in Singapore.

Anonymous said...

//As long as I'm paid sufficient for my own living expenses and my family, I am contented. And I don't go around asking my friends their pay too.// Anon.18/12/12 21:59

Well said.
But our Ministers are not contented. They demanded that their pay should be pegged to the income of top Singaporean earners.

Anonymous said...

They demanded that their pay should be pegged to the income of top Singaporean earners.
Anon 19/12/12 20:31

Because 60% allow them to demand.

You too can demand if 60% allow you also.

So start to think, plan and action to make 60% allow you to demand.

Blog or comment no use.

Anonymous said...

"Blog or comment no use."

Then take your own advice and bugger off.
What are you still doing here?
Of course blog & comment got use.

Anonymous said...

When cleaning backside, do you achieve 60% clean with 40% residual shit or if you prefer, 40% clean with 60% residual shit?

Whichever way you look at it, the current cleaning system leaves behind a lot of shit.

Anonymous said...

Of course the best is no shit lah but not an available choice what.

So choose the best available lah.
40% shit is better than 60% shit what, tio bo?

Anonymous said...

Is that how you wipe your backside?

Anonymous said...

//Because 60% allow them to demand.
You too can demand if 60% allow you also.// Anon. 20/12/12 08:59

On surface, the figure (60%) looks good.
But on second thought, when a ruling party with absolute control of almost everything only managed to obtain 60% of votes, this indicates that its days are numbered.

The PE results that TT(backed by the ruling party) obtained only 35.19% of votes further confirmed the above observation.

Anonymous said...

We need to move from the old to the new covenant.
Cleaner.

Anonymous said...

The article “Requests for help from foreign workers up” on page 4 of TODAY dated 20th December 2012 quoted some interesting numbers from MOM Minister Tan Chuan-Jin.
It said MOM processes 600 statutory employment cases per month and settled 90% of them within 1 month. That means on average there are 10% X 600 = 60 cases that remained unresolved one month after they had been filed with MOM. Let’s assume that all of these leftover cases were unresolved, (which is very unlikely because MOM has to at least resolve some of them), then the maximum number of unresolved statutory cases per year = 12 X 60= 720.
However, let us now look at the number of such cases the NGOs handled in one year. Migrant Workers Centre MWC handled 1250 such cases on average (1500 this year and 1200 last year). Transient Workers Count Too (TWC2), another NGO, also assisted 2270 cases for last year. Each of these two organizations helped 2 times and 3 times the number of unresolved cases per year from MOM. TWO times and THREE times.
Now, that’s a glaring discrepancy between these numbers. There can only be a few plausible explanations:
1) The two NGOs were solving only the “un-statutory” cases. Meaning the statutes do not cover their grievances. However, the statutes cover many things, including salary, work injury, employment agency abuse to housing conditions). So it will be interesting to know what is considered by MOM to be “un-statutory”. Given the huge difference in cases between MOM and NGOs, one can conclude that MOM could be pushing away a lot of cases.
2) All three organizations are solving duplicate cases. That means the workers filed report first with MOM, thereafter visited the two NGOs to “hedge”. But given that there are 2X to 3X cases filed with NGOs, there are still too many excess cases left unexplained. Also, the fact that the workers do so much “hedging” also speak volume about the actual scope of assistance offered by MOM.
3) The two NGOs are lying. They are reporting too ugly a number to promote their organizational objectives e.g. get more resources, get more media attention, and claim more credit etc. Or MOM is giving too rosy a number. Minister Tan could be given a set of reported numbers that are too rosy by his underlings. Personally, I think the Minister is doing a good job. But do check those numbers.

Anonymous said...

horrible writing right?

Anonymous said...

Hi!
I'm from the PAP government.
I'm here to help Singaporeans.

Ha! Ha! Ha!
ROFL.

Anonymous said...

PAP is the best available party to form the government to help SIngaporeans.

But only 60% think so but that is more than enough.

Anonymous said...

Now the son of JBJ is interested in Punggol East.

Looks like we may also have a 35% PAP MP after Punggol East by election, if there is one.

35% MP, 35% President. lol

Anonymous said...

Son of JBJ may lose deposit, just like Desmond and TKL.

PAP sure win.

Anonymous said...

/// PAP is the best available party to form the government to help SIngaporeans. ////

Please lah! Your standard is too low lah!

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Emotionless, unhappy and the next one...dumb

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